Quelqu'un se rappelle mes mots sur Kon-Tiki (Viracocha) = Pontificem ?

Répliques assorties : Femmes hormis le cercle nemrodien immédiat ... · Nemrod et le Néolithique · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Quelqu'un se rappelle mes mots sur Kon-Tiki (Viracocha) = Pontificem ?

Je pense que ce soit sur MSN Group Antimodernism et non pas sur ce compte blogger.

Mon idée était donc que, oui, les Apôtres ont enseigné toutes les nations, pas juste celles accessibles dans l'Ancien Monde, mais aussi celles du Nouveau Monde. Dans ce contexte, j'avais hypothésisé que "Kon Tiki" (un des noms de Viracocha) aurait pu être un Apôtre et évêque, et que le nom vienne du latin "pontificem" (à l'époque que C était toujours prononcé K, et jamais encore TCH, donc avant le III ou IVe siècle).

En lisant Tiahuanaco, 10 000 d'énigmes incas, par Simone Waisbard, je trouve cette idée en partie confirmée. Pas exactement pour Viracocha, mais pour un compagnon. Et les prêtres espagnols vont rejoindre les Mormones dans l'idée. Ou plutôt, je partage davantage avec les prêtres espagnols qu'avec les Mormones. Page 85.

[...] Et lors de son pèlerinage à la source, Tupac Yupanqui aurait ordonné qu'on élévât dans l'île du Titikaka, un temple à Tonapa. [...] Les missionnaires espagnols de la conquête s'empressèrent de faire de Tonapa, un apôtre précolonial, soit saint Thomas, saint Bartholomé, voire saint Pierre ou saint Paul... et, pourquoi pas? le Christ!

De la suite on va voir que Ce Dernier, c'était pas un missionnaire espagnol qu'elle cite, c'était Werley Craig, un Mormone. Mais pour un apôtre, oui, on a le XVIIe siècle débutant.

Dans une délirante chronique rédigée en 1621 à Copacabana en Bolivie, le père Ramos Gavilan, le plus fanatique des missionnaires conquistadores, fait de Tonapa « un saint homme blanc qui descend du ciel à la vue des Indiens parmi lesquels il vit quelques jours avant de renoncer à les convertir. Il précise que « le saint blac précha à haute voix très longtemps avant l'arrivée des chrétiens... et qu'il transportait une croix qu'il planta partout dans le sol, si bien que la foudre qui jusqu'alors ravageait l'endroit, n'y tomba plus ».

Attention, "délirante" et "le plus fanatique" sont des qualifications de l'auteure que je cite sans les partager. Par contre, Simone Waisbard (merci !) confirme que mon intuition d'alors a été partagé par un Fray Alonso Ramos Gavilán y Díaz O.S.A. bien en règle avec l'Église catholique. Si j'ai "déliré" par rapport aux valeurs de le femme de Roger Waisbard, je ne l'ai pas fait aux yeux de Fray Alonso Ramos Gavilán.

Pour Viracocha comme pour Tonapa, les histoires indigènes précisent une volonté d'interdire les idolâtries par exmple de Lune et Soleil ou des démons. Mais pour Viracocha, il y a aussi des indications qui le mettent en rapport avec un Déluge. Serait-ce Noé ? Comment alors devient Noé le contemporain d'un Apôtre de Jésus-Christ, quand il y a 3000 ans* entre le Déluge et la Rédemption, selon le martyrologe romain ? Bon, faut savoir que l'élément le plus facilement déformable dans la tradition orale est la chronologie. Et que donc une des erreurs les plus fréquentes en des récits qu'on dit "légendaires" (de l'histoire purement orale) est donc l'anachronisme.

Alors, une mémoire de Noé serait préservé depuis l'après-Déluge et se serait fondu avec la mémoire d'un apôtre qui trouve les Andins trop peu dociles ? Bon, au minimum, ça prouverait un instinct que l'apôtre avait la même réligion que Noé, ce qui est vrai, et non pas celle des faux dieux, qui était celle de la population au temps de Tonapa. Pour Tonapa il s'agit d'interdire le culte des Astres, notemment des deux grands. Pour Viracocha ... non, je me trompais à moitié, page 86 :

Quelquefois l'apôtre est Taapac, le fils de Viracocha, dont les prêches agitent et boleversent tout le pays. La nouvelle doctrine qu'il prône, détrône les idoles locales et bannit les apinuños — les démons.

Des temps de Noé, le culte direct de démons est plus envisageable que celui de faux dieux, d'idoles. Après, ceci n'empêche pas que l'apôtre, s'il y en avait, était capable de les bannir avec des exorcismes. Le fait de les mettre comme compagnons ou plutôt de gens qui se croisent, avec Viracocha et Tonapa, fait un peu écho aux deux témoins.

Comme je viens de présumer, explicitement, que la chronologie biblique est correcte, que fais-je avec les datations des Grottes de Toquepala ?

Ceci est dans un autre endroit du livre, proche de la fin. On a une datation de 7 650 av. J.-Chr. d'un ossement humain calciné qui se trouve là-bas.** Entretemps, on a aussi d'autres datations, jusqu'en 12 000 av. J.-Chr. Et 10 000 av. J.-Chr. pour d'hommes :

L’Homme de Lauricocha est le nom donné à un ensemble de fossiles d'Homo sapiens datés de 9500 à 9150 av. J.-C., trouvés dans la Cordillère centrale du Pérou. Ces fossiles ont été découverts en 1958-59 par Augusto Cárdich dans les grottes de Lauricocha. Il s'agit de onze individus, quatre adultes et sept enfants, qui comptent, avec ceux de Paiján, au nombre des restes humains les plus anciens du pays.

Débutons avec les dates*** :

2599 av. J.Chr.

(Babel a débuté)

43,1708 pcm, donc daté comme 9549 av. J.Chr.

"9 500"

"9 150"

2585 av. J.Chr.

45,483 pcm, donc daté comme 9085 av. J.Chr.

"7 650"

= à peu près =

2466 av. J.Chr.

53,2551 pcm, donc daté comme 7666 av. J.Chr.

Ces personnes sont donc, en vérité, datables à une courte période de 133 ans.

Ensuite, si la Cordillère des Andes s'est élévée après le Déluge, est-ce que les hommes dessus ont loupé les premiers siècles que c'était invivable avec la vitesse de montée et donc les tremblements de terre et glissements de terrain ?

2957 - 2599 = 358 ans. Ce qui pourrait suffire, surtout si les ossements de Lauricocha sont morts dans des tremblements de terre et si ceux qui les ont enterrés ont eu hâte d'éviter le prochain tremblement :

Les° tombes des adultes sont dépouillées, sans offrandes ni signes de classe. Elles semblent avoir été creusées à la hâte ... Les tombes d'enfants, au contraire, révèlent un modèle de sépulture tout différent. Les corps de trois d'entre eux (nº 9, nº 10 et nº 11) ont été enterrés avec soin selon un mystérieux rite funéraire, mêlés de divers objets en manière d'offrande : colliers de perles en os et turquoise, coquillage du genre Pecten, divers objets de silex et pointes de flèche en pierre.

2957 - 2399 = 558 ans, entre le Déluge et l'industrie de Patou dans le Siwalik,°° c'est un peu davantage que ceci, mais les Himalayas étant plus massives que les Andes, la période soumise à des tremblements et des glissements a aussi pu être plus longue. Donc, oui, les hommes arrives dans les Andes pas directement après le Déluge, mais après quelques siècles que ce terrain qui monte trop vite reste inhabitable.

Les hommes ayant vécu avec Nemrod semblent avoir influencé les idées sur les Condors en terre andine. Ceci mériterait un autre essai un peu plus approfondi.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Camille de Lellis
18.VII.2023

* Le martyrologe du 25 décembre énumère les datations possibles de la naissance de Jésus par rapport à d'événements antérieurs. Dont : "a diluvio autem, anno bis millesimo nongentesimo quinquagesimo septimo;" (Naissance du Dieu-Homme 2957 ans après le Déluge). ** Page 274. *** En mélangeant les dates carboniques évoquées avec les dates bibliques et carboniques de :

Tables de carbone 14 sur les bases révisées (I - VI)
New blog on the kid | mercredi, 17 juin 2020
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2020/06/tables-de-carbone-14-sur-les-bases.html

° On est encore sur l'article L’Homme de Lauricocha.
°° voir la série Himalayas ... how fast did they rise? · Himalayas, bis ... and Pyrenees · ter · quater · quinquies ... double-checked

Alain Pascal sur la Renaissance

Rivarol 3573, p. 9, l'entrevue avec Alain Pascal

A. P. : La Renaissance est une imposture, d’abord parce qu’il n’y a pas de Moyen Âge, ensuite parce que ce mouvement est gnostique et kabbalistique, donc antichrétien et anti-occidental, mais aussi une régression culturelle.

Regression culturelle - ça passe.

Sts François d'Assise et Thomas d'Aquin ont quemandé de l'argent (ou pour St. François possiblement plutôt des vivres et des textiles, parfois des outils, comme plus tard les Capucins). Et ceci dans la rue. Avec la Renaissance, en imitation des Musulmans, et au contraire de la révérence due à Mardochée, et à son refus de révérencier Haman, on commence à rendre la mendicité plus honteuse. C'est un regrès culturel important. D'ailleurs, la justice dans l'acte de mendicité est défini par St. Thomas d'Aquin de manières qui ne le rendent pas l'apanage unique des estropiés et des frères mendiants, mais plutôt, les frères mendiants apportent deux bienfaits à ceux qui leur donne aumône - le bien-fait spirituel, qui est la prière pour les bien-faiteurs, et un bien-fait qui, lui aussi, peut être spirituel à la fin, car il exhorte à la vertu chrétienne, mais qui est, à la base, directement, indépendant des grâces inspirées par lui, un bien-fait culturel.

Si je n'arrive pas à pardonner à mes ennemis et donc non plus à prier le Notre Père, exit un quelconque bien-fait spirituel. Mais on peut encore être goliard. J'ai chanté dans la rue pour des sous, en 2004 et en 2005 et début 2006, quand j'avais encore une voix. Et maintenant (et déjà en Aix, en 2006) j'apporte les blogs, librements accessibles dans l'internet. Les adresses (URLs, pas courriels !) marquées sur les panneaux.

Comme je suis donc un tenant du Moyen Âge classique (qui a existé, même si "le Moyen Âge" ne l'a peut-être pas), je suis contre les changements de la Renaissance, comme celui-ci, qui se perpétue par d'un côté la Réforme luthérienne et anglicane, d'un autre, un peu plus tard, le régime de Louis XIV.

Ensuite, "il n’y a pas de Moyen Âge" - moit, moit ...

C'est quelque part possible que LE Moyen Âge n'a pas existé. Ce qui a par contre existé sont trois époques, qu'on peut qualifier selon l'architecture de ces époques des églises romanes ou byzantines, des églises gothiques quand c'était un nouveau style, et des églises en gothique tardive et en école florentine. Ou si on veut, entre les deux premiers, la coupure est dans l'ogive, entre les deux dernier, en peinture, la gothique tardive ayant une peinture réaliste.

J'espère que M. Pascal ne veuille pas nier que Giotto se trouvait à cheval entre les périodes dites assez souvent "Moyen Âge classique" et "Moyen Âge tardive" ...

Mais bien entendu, le "Moyen Âge" comme vue par les partisans d'un programme de la Renaissance, c'est une imposture. Pourtant, le nom est collé à d'autres choses qui ne le sont pas.

Finalement ... ensuite parce que ce mouvement est gnostique et kabbalistique, donc antichrétien et anti-occidental,

Belle description de Giordano Bruno. Belle par son exactitude. Beaucoup moins belle si prétendant être celle d'Érasme, ou encore de son ami et disciple St. Thomas More.

Pour Pico della Mirandola* et Ficino, je pense que M. Pascal exagère. Sont pas mon truc, C. S. Lewis les aimait davantage que moi, lui étant aussi plus platonique, un tantinnet moins thomiste.

Ce qui me traque un peu, c'est que pas mal de gens utilisent les mots "gnostique" et "kabbalistique" un peu à la légère. Une thèse n'est pas, du point de vue catholique, "gnostique" ou relévant de l'erreur gnostique, parce qu'il y a un auteur gnostique qui a dit la même chose. Une thèse l'est du moment que seuls des auteurs gnostiques et pas des auteurs catholiques la soutiennent. Serait-il prône à me taxer de gnostique parce que je crois que les astres sont mus par des anges ? Pourtant, ce n'est pas seulement la thèse de St. Thomas d'Aquin, mais selon Riccioli, qui avoue dans ce contexte que l'astrophysique n'est pas une science empirique, c'est la thèse d'une foultitude de docteurs catholiques approuvés.

New blog on the kid : What Opinion did Riccioli call the Fourth and Most Common One?
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2014/08/what-opinion-did-riccioli-call-fourth.html

Je refuse aussi assez catégoriquement de prendre père Athanasius Kircher pour un antichrétien. Par contre, je ne suis pas fan de John Dee.

En général, on peut dire que la Renaissance était un mélange du bon et du mauvais, comme les autres époques. Du Quattrocento on peut certes citer la Pucelle, mais il y a aussi Gilles de Rais. Pour le Duecento, St. Louis IX, mais aussi Frédéric II (empereur du Saint-Empire). Qu'une certaine publicité pour une époque (ou contre une époque) soit une imposture ne rend pas l'époque imposture. Et en tant qu'époque des impostures, le XXe et XXIe siècle sont pire que le XVIe. Si Chiré me boycotte parce que Alain Pascal me taxe d'ésotérique, on en aurait encore une - quoique un peu plus douloureuse que certaines d'autres pour ma propre peau.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Sainte Élisabeth de Portugal
8.VII.2023

Sanctae Elisabeth Viduae, Lusitanorum Reginae, quae ad regnum caeleste quarto Nonas hujus mensis transivit.

* Bien qu'il n'était pas vraiment mon truc, je viens de lire Pierre Hillard :

Nous pouvons relever qu’en 1486 les « Neuf cents conclusions » de Pic de la Mirandole, promouvant une “bonne” kabbale chrétienne sous l’influence de son mentor, le juif Samuel ben Nissim Abulfaraj dit Mithridate (1445-1489), avaient été condamnées par le pape Innocent VIII dès 1487 car mettant « la magie et la Kabbale au-dessus du témoignage des Évangiles ».

Rivarol 3574, 12 juillet, p. 8

Dissenting from Humanae Vitae vs Traditionis Custodes

Michael Lofton made a comparison, which is kind of at least half fair for those who accept "Paul VI" was and "Francis" is Pope.

Supposing they are Popes, and supposing the encyclicals are good, dissenting from them is bad and conservatives who dissent from TC have been caught in the act of imitating progressives dissenting from HV. That's basically Michael Lofton's point.

Now, what if they weren't / aren't Popes and what if the encyclicals aren't good?

The point is, HV seems to accomodate for using the Ogino method or the menstrual cycles method in the contraceptive intention.

§ 15 seems OK.

15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

So, if giving someone (a male) haldol resulted in erectile dysfunction, this would still be OK if haldol was to cure a bodily disease - in fact, it isn't, it's to pseudo-palliate supposed mental diseases. So, this does not allow for haldol to be used on married men.

More appropriate to the actual case, removing ovaries to get rid of ovary cancer (if that is a condition) is licit.

But what about § 16?

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Does he have any preconciliar source for this teaching? Yes, a very low-key one, not an encyclical, only an adress to a profession, since note 20 gives:

(20) See Pius XII, Address to Midwives: AAS 43 (1951), 846.

I have raised concerns whether Pius was Pope in 1950. I have also raised concerns whether he was formally Pope in 1950 after Humani Generis or just material Pope - and if such, could he have lost papacy by further sins against the faith in 1951 (allegations the earth is 5 billion years old, or as in this case, that "infertile periods" is a licit means of spacing children).

But again, suppose for argument's sake, "Paul VI" was in fact Pope, suppose for argument's sake Humanae Vitae was in fact solid Church teaching ... why did Paul VI not excommunicate those who publically dissented from it?

If he had done that, "Francis" would not have had the problem with those publically dissenting from Traditionis Custodes. Arguably, they would have been in two different Churches, and "Francis" in the one of those excommunicated for promoting the invention of Julius Fromm. Indeed, if you recall the Rabbit Gate Affair, Bergoglio seems to have a certain moral affinity with the 1930's Lambeth Conference.

To return to § 16 - traditionally, the Church does not teach that. In the Old Testament, half of each month prior to a pregnancy, all of a pregnancy and 40 days after, were banned for marital intercourse. The Ogino method was compulsory in the other, the conceptive, intention. St. Thomas teaches that while this no longer holds under mortal sin, the reason why its a venial sin to have sex at other times of the monthly cycle is, pregnancies actually do occur then. This is an indication that girls marrying young was fairly common, since in early puberty, menstrual cycles are irregular. To put it bluntly, very bluntly, the one reason why it's not a mortal sin to have sex less than one week after menstruation is, some marriages, and Swedish Social Democrats would term them "paedophilia" and they would be illegal in today's Sweden (a country I intend to avoid, if possible), have proven a married woman (whom Swedish Social Democrats would term a "child bride") can be actually fertile then.

It is also a doctrine that the means that are in and of themselves morally neutral are getting their moral value from the intention. So, suppose that we have two means, and only these two, each morally licit, namely not having sex at a fertile period, and having sex at an infertile period - according to St. Thomas this is just because one cannot be sure it's infertile! - if the intention is "contraception" (having sex, avoiding children), the act as such is illicit because of the illicit intention.

I can foresee at least one directly illicit act under such an agreement. Namely, denying intercourse to the spouse during the fertile period, with a comment like "you know what we agreed" ... it would seem, some clergy who support HV, including § 16, would want both spouses to be first so "mature" that this would not risk happening. That in turn overturning the long standing teaching of the Church via canon law (before St. Thomas Aquinas up to the 1917 code) that a boy of 14 and a girl of 12 are, generally speaking, mature enough to marry, at least as often as they aren't (it reflects, in fact, the medium age of puberty fairly well).

That is how far the actual tradition of the Church is from § 16 of HV. And that is why "Paul VI" wasn't Pope, and didn't act like a pope against those siding instead with the 1930's Lambeth Conference. And that is why "Francis" is both very reluctant to act like a Pope against those opposing Traditionis Custodes, and fairly out of his depth in even issuing it, thereby braving Quo Primum. Some have complained that Latin Rite biritualism is making the Church a "cafeteria" and in so far as this is the case, the cafeteria was opened by, again, "Paul VI" ...

If "Paul VI" had been Pope, could he have imposed a new missal as the new only genuine rite of the Latin Rite? Yes, it is at least possible (barring the tinkering with the words of consecration). If so, he could have banned as schismatics those clinging to the missal of 1962, just as the Sedevacantists refusing even 1962 (and the late Pope Michael was in that sense their heir) would by many even then have been considered as schismatics. The fact of the matter is, he didn't, since he both made provisions for celebrating in 1962 books (one of them the provision that Rev. Bryan Houghton used, "retired priests" - he retired when the New Missal came into function, so he could next morning continue, now as a retired priest, to celebrate as previously) and refused to excommunicate those who opposed his New Missal.

Monseigneur Marcel Lefebvre was very far from being censored in 1969. He left the leadership of the Holy Ghost Fathers in 1968, in 1970 SSPX was founded as a pious union, with the support of Monseigneur Charrière, in 1975, the successor of Monseigneur Charrière asked the Vatican to end the status of pious union, and up to 29 June 1976, Monseigneur Lefebvre was totally free from actual censures. When on that date he ordained priests, against the will of the local ordinary, the Vatican responded by a suspension a divinis. When I was born, and one month later, the old missal was the regularly used one, my mother stopping in Munich between Vienna, where I was born, and Södertelge, where she was visiting my grandparents with me, went to a Latin Mass, missal of 1962. When Monseigneur Lefebvre was suspended, it was the first summer vacation I had from school.*

Up to 1988, there was a friendship and alliance between Monseigneur Lefebvre, Rev. Houghton, and the Monastery** Saint Magdalen of Le Barroux. The original two monks, having left La Pierre Qui Vire with the blessing of their previous abbot, were not suspended, nor was Houghton, but lots of monks who became priests were ordained by Marcel Lefebvre, and so were suspended.

It was in fact not the idea "the suspension is against Catholic tradition and against Quo Primum and therefore invalid" that got Marcel Lefebvre, Antônio de Castro Mayer, and first four new bishops in 1988, then Licínio Rangel in 1991 - 2001 or 2002 declared automatically excommunicated. He actually served as bishop for 11 months in communion with "John Paul II" - It was solely the act of consecrating bishops without apostolic mandate. Or getting oneself so consecrated. Note, the "papal" declaration was not a sententia condemnativa, but a sententia declarativa. It didn't say "we excommunicate Marcel Lefebvre" but "Marcel Lefebvre incurred automatic excommunication" - which is a contestable statement, even for those accepting "John Paul II" was pope.

If "Francis" wants it to appear that the missal of 1969 is not just valid, but the licit expression of the Latin rite, to the exclusion of the older rite, he is doing very clumsy damage control for what "Paul VI" did. The Swedes have an expression taken from baking. "Yeast after oven" - you can't make leavened bread by putting yeast on top of already baked matsot.

The case of Pope Michael against the heritage of Marcel Lefebvre is basically "when those in the Vatican did so much wrong for so long time, over so many pretended papacies, how can you still compare it to resisting a Pope making a blunder?"

And when Michael Lofton says one should either at least in public bow down to Traditionis Custodes, or consider oneself a partner in crime with those criticising HV for its main point*** I think he is retroactively making that point for the late Pope Michael.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Elisabeth of Portugal
8.VII.2023

Sanctae Elisabeth Viduae, Lusitanorum Reginae, quae ad regnum caeleste quarto Nonas hujus mensis transivit. [4 Julii] Stremotii, in Lusitania, natalis sanctae Elisabeth Viduae, Lusitanorum Reginae, quam, virtutibus et miraculis claram, Urbanus Octavus, Pontifex Maximus, in Sanctorum numerum retulit. Ejus tamen celebritas octavo Idus mensis hujus recolitur, ex dispositione Innocentii Papae Duodecimi.

PS - for anyone knowing Sweden, I think I have just made a case of it being very unwise of me to get back to Sweden. To Mr and Mrs and Miss Medelsvensson, everything I have written above just screams weirdo in very big letters to them./HGL

* The summer vacations in Sweden are long. A joke specifies as "three good reasons to become a teacher" the months June, July and August. In fact, early days in June are still in school, so are late days in August, but it's still more than the legally required five weeks of paid vacations. ** Since then Abbey. Dom Gérard Calvet and Bryan Houghton sided with Ecclesia Dei. "John Paul II" erected the monastery to a sui juris abbey. *** Much as I respect Bryan Houghton, when he cried for relief over seing HV "perfectly orthodox" I think he was inadequately attentive to § 16.

Pools and five porticos of Bethesda

Dr. Bergsma, in a video for Pints with Aquinas, mentioned that this construction - not a pentagonal shape, but an extra fifth portico between the two pools - has been found, or rather its foundations have been found. It was, apart from the foundations, completely erased in the year 70 AD.

So, apart from St. John providing proof for having been around (or at worst reusing information from one having been around) before the year 70 in Jerusalem - what more do we see?

We see a man, conscious of an already bygone world, giving glimpses of it.

I think it is fairly clear it was the Gospeller, rather than the Baptist, who was patron saint to John Ronald Reuel Philip Tolkien. For Philip, it was San Filippo Neri, by the way, not not the one mentioned in Acts.

Faramir referring to Númenor is one of Tolkien's self portraits - which, as we have just seen, is so St. John the Gospeller./HGL

Is the genealogy in Livy compatible with Aeneas having been in the Trojan War?

Livy 1:1 Ascanius is born soon after Aeneas arrives in Laurentian territory.
1:3 thirty years before Alba Longa is founded

It can be noted that I will now use thirty as a module for the following, also from 1:3

Ascanius > Silvius > Latinus Silvius
Alba, Atys, Capys, Capetus, Tiberinus, Agrippa, Romulus Silvius, Aventinus, Proca, Numitor and Amulius

13 * 30 = 390?

0753
0390
1143
0030
1173

If this is so, Aeneas would have arrived 6 or 36 years after the Trojan war./HGL

Gematria in ASCII - Is there any appropriateness?

Let's take two main Inklings in gematrias I have already the habit of looking for (one capitals only, one spaces, dots, lower case too).

JRRTOLKIEN
C. S. Lewis

Obviously also the inverse preferences:

J. R. R. Tolkien
CSLEWIS

Test numbers - using the gematria as chronograms.

JRRTOLKIEN = 772, C. S. Lewis = 822

J	74	070	04		C	67	_	060	07
R	82	150	06		.	46	32	100	13	32
R	82	230	08		S	83	_	180	16
T	84	310	12		.	46	32	220	22	64
O	79	380	21		L	76	_	290	28
L	76	450	27		e	69	32	350	37	96
K	75	520	32		w	87	32	430	44	128
I	73	590	35		i	73	32	500	47	160
E	69	650	44		s	83	32	580	50	192	= 822
N	78	720	52	= 772

772

Saxon Wars: King Charlemagne leads a Frankish expedition from the Middle Rhine into disputed territory lost by the Franks in 695. He starts a campaign against the Saxons and seizes Eresburg, destroying the Irminsul (Saxon sacred tree) near Paderborn. Charlemagne devastates several major Saxon strongholds, and forces them to retreat beyond the Weser River. After negotiating with some Saxon nobles and obtaining hostages, he installs a number of garrisons.[1]

King Desiderius of the Lombards, enraged by the repudiation by Charlemagne of his daughter Desiderata, proclaims Gerberga's sons lawful heirs to the Frankish throne. He attacks Pope Adrian I for refusing to crown them, and invades the Duchy of the Pentapolis. Desiderius marches on Rome, and Adrian turns to the Franks for military support.

In England, King Offa of Mercia attempts to rule Kent directly, possibly to depose his rival Egbert II (approximate date).

All three events in Europe are highly relevant to Tolkien. Charlemagne is half an half a model for Aragorn, and the Two Trees of Valinor can be considered as Tolkien's attempt to replant Irminsul into the more Christian soil of the two trees in Eden. Our author was highly conscious of the Lombards, and part of the "past incarnations" of Audoin and Alboin in a dream journey into the past were the two successors of Waltari of Lombardy in the 6th C. Anglo-Saxon history and Mercian (both language and history) were dear to Tolkien.

822

Byzantine Empire

Byzantine general and usurper Thomas the Slav continues his revolt against Emperor Michael II. He unsuccessfully besieges Constantinople, while his fleet is destroyed by Michael's fleet, using Greek fire.

Battle of Kedouktos (near Heraclea): Khan Omurtag of Bulgaria sends a relief army, and defeats the Byzantine rebels. [1][2][3]

Europe

Emperor Louis I performs public penance for causing his nephew Bernard's death 4 years earlier, at his palace of Attigny (Ardennes), before Pope Paschal I, and the Frankish nobles (this to restore harmony and re-establish his authority).[4]

The earliest known mention of the Serbs, in Einhard's Royal Frankish Annals.

Britain

King Ceolwulf I of Mercia invades Powys (Wales), but is beaten back by King Cyngen. However, Ceolwulf does destroy the fortress of Deganwy, and later takes the kingdom under his control (approximate date).

Al-Andalus

Al-Hakam I, Umayyad emir of Córdoba, dies after a 26-year reign. He is succeeded by his son Abd al-Rahman II, who begins a military campaign against King Alfonso II of Asturias in Al-Andalus (modern Spain).

Religion

Rabanus Maurus, a Frankish Benedictine monk, becomes abbot of Fulda, after the death of Eigil.

The evil of rebellion, the excitingness of war and fleets and unsuccessful sieges, the penance of kings, the discovery of previously unknown peoples, the opposition between Saxon and (by the 19th / 20th C) more anarchic Celt, Southron kings waging war against those of the faith ... we are in the realm of Prince Caspian, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, The Horse and His Boy - in some ways, C. S. Lewis at his best. And Dr. Cornelius, Coriakin, Hermit of the Southern March give Raban Maur a cameo on these works. Not to mention how his "Vexilla Regis prodeunt" have influenced parts of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

J. R. R. Tolkien = 1398, CSLEWIS = 538

J	74	_	070	04		C	67	060	07
.	46	32	110	10	32	S	83	140	10
R	82	_	190	12		L	76	210	16
.	46	32	230	18	64	E	69	270	25
R	82	_	310	20		W	87	350	32
.	46	32	350	26	96	I	73	420	35
T	84	_	430	30		S	83	500	38	= 538
o	79	32	500	39	128
l	76	32	570	45	160
k	75	32	640	50	192
i	73	32	710	53	224
e	69	32	770	62	256
n	78	32	840	70	288	=1398

1398

April - May – The Bosnian nobility dethrone Queen Helen and replace her with Stephen Ostoja.
July – The Stecknitz Canal is completed between the rivers Elbe and Trave (at Lübeck) in modern-day north Germany, one of the earliest navigable summit level canals in the world.
September

King Richard II of England exiles his cousin Henry Bolingbroke (the future Henry IV of England) for 10 years, in order to end Henry's feud with Thomas de Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk, who is also exiled.[1]
As France withdraws its support for Antipope Benedict XIII, an army led by Geoffrey Boucicaut occupies Avignon, and starts a five-year siege of the papal palace.

October 12 – The Treaty of Salynas is signed by Vytautas, Grand Duke of Lithuania, and Konrad von Jungingen, Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights, in an attempt to cede Samogitia to the Knights.
October 14 – King Taejo of Joseon abdicates the throne of the Joseon dynasty in modern-day Korea, following the murder of his heir Yi Bangsuk, during a coup by Yi's older half-brother, Yi Bang-won, in The First Strife Of Princes. Taejo's eldest son Jeongjong succeeds to the throne.
November 11 – Janus succeeds his father, James I, as King of Cyprus and claimant to the throne of Armenian Cilicia.
December 17 – Timur defeats the last ruler of the Delhi Sultanate, which has been weakened after four years of civil war. Following his victory, Timur's Islamic troops sack the city of Delhi, and proceed to massacre hundreds of thousands of the state's Hindu inhabitants.

Date unknown

The Teutonic Knights recommence their raids of Lithuania.
The Teutonic Knights conquer the island of Gotland, near Sweden, which has previously been run by the piratical Victual Brothers.
Martin of Aragon launches a crusade against the Moors in North Africa.
The Kingdom of Singapura falls, after being invaded by the Majapahit Empire.
Abdullah succeeds Abu Amir as ruler of the Marinid dynasty in modern-day Morocco.
Bunei succeeds his father, Satto, as King of Chūzan (modern-day central Okinawa, Japan).
Glendalough monastery in Wicklow, Ireland is destroyed by English troops.
Ferapontov Monastery is founded in modern-day northwest Russia by Therapont of Belozersk.
The Munmyo Confucian shrine and Sungkyunkwan University are founded in modern-day Seoul.
Mount Grace Priory is established in Yorkshire, England.
According to fringe theorists, the Scottish explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, reaches North America.

Births
... Cecília Rozgonyi, Hungarian noble and heroine (d. 1434)
... Johannes Gutenberg, German inventor of the printing press

Replacing a queen with a king seems to reflect the situation of Miriel. The Stecknitz canal would have had counterparts in Númenor well before her. Tolkien may or may not have believed as Chesterton that Richard II sympathised with the revolting peasants, and was betrayed by the parliament, but his fate would certainly have interested Tolkien. Antipope Benedict XIII, previously supported by France, would be, like other antipopes and false prophets, typified by Saruman, the treasonable head of the White Council. Several items concern Lithuanians and Teutonic order, among whom Tolkien certainly had ancestors. Their name probably not meaning "tollkühn" but rather interpreter - like Swedish "tolk" ... Timur's victory is arguably mirrored in that of Angmar that millennium prior to the hobbits arriving at the Galgals or at Weathertop. The First Strife Of Princes in Korea recalls the Kinstrife in Gondor (and hangul letters share the phonographic if I may so call it principle with tengwar. Three monasteries, including one charterhouse priory are involved. Charterhouses produce manuscript (later on printed) books, obviously a great hit with Tolkien, and Glendalough destroyed by English reminds of Ely destroyed by Normans - for which Tolkien had a great affection.

If Theoden at Pelennor field reminds of St. Stephen of Hungary, his niece Eowyn has a counterpart in another Hungarian, Cecília Rozgonyi - and obviously, Gutenberg was making a revolution in the way Charterhouses were making books.

538

Byzantine Empire

March 12 – Siege of Rome: King Vitiges of the Ostrogoths ends his siege (after 374 days) and abandons Rome. He retreats with his Gothic army northeast along the Via Flaminia.
Belisarius attacks the Goths when they have crossed the Milvian Bridge. After fierce resistance, Vitiges routs in panic, and many are slain or drowned in the river.[1]
Gothic War: Vitiges strengthens the garrisons of various towns and besieges Ariminum. Byzantine forces under the Armenian general Narses arrive at Picenum.[2]
April – Belisarius secures Liguria, Mediolanum (modern Milan) and Ariminum, but disagreements, especially with Narses, leads to disunity in the Byzantine army.
Summer – King Theudebert I sends a small Frankish force across the Alps, and defeats the Goths and Byzantines at the River Po. Belisarius retreats to Tuscany.
Sittas, Byzantine general, suppresses a revolt in Armenia in protest against heavy taxation. During the campaign he is killed by Artabanes, leader of the revolt.[3]

Britain

King Cuneglas of Rhos abandons his wife in favour of his sister-in-law, a nun who he drags from her convent (approximate date).
Gabrán mac Domangairt becomes king of Dál Riata (Scotland).

Religion

As a result of persecutions by the Byzantine Empire, Monophysite Christians establish the Coptic Church in Alexandria (approximate date).
The Third Council of Orléans takes place, and prohibits rural labor on Sunday.

Society

Third year of worldwide famine, a consequence of the Extreme weather events of 535–536.[n 1]

Births

... Gregory of Tours, French bishop, historian (d. 594)

C. S. Lewis cared much more for Christians not in communion with Rome and persecuted, so, Monophysites. Siege of Rome - the most famous one being perhaps Hannibal ante portas. Did you know Hannibal was halted at a place called, on Latin rather than Italian maps, Narnia?

Councils of Orléans are not in fact Calvinist, but about as close to Calvinism as C. S. Lewis got. He did on occasion feature famine, at least as a backdrop and theoretical threat. Cuneglas violation of his sister in law reminds of the attempts of Rabadash the Ridiculous. Gabrán mac Domangairt is also called Gwran Wradouc (byname meaning "traitor") and C. S. Lewis has one (actually good) king who started out as a traitor - Edmund. Everything in the Byzantine Empire can be put under the heading of CSL's comment in the beginning of his action in WWI - "war, this is what Homer wrote about" - and Gregory of Tours is reminiscent of the whole genre of texts in which CSL (and Tolkien) studied old wars.

So, for the two main Inklings, I think there is a great deal of appropriateness in how their ASCII gematria works out as chronograms.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre
Pope St. Leo II
3.VII.2023

PS, it turns out "ab urbe condita 538" = 216 BC ... check out that one .../HGL

Second Long Comment, Second Longer Post

In Response to a Long Comment, a Longer Post · Second Long Comment, Second Longer Post

I am not answering all, because some things, I don't disagree with, some things I already answered, I get the feeling, and some things, I don't know. My main contention is only that Romanides (whom I have read, or perhaps it was the summary by Metallinos), is inaccurate in stating the earliest Roman Patricians spoke Greek.

"All Roman histories were in Greek by earlier Greek historians first. Latin written histories came WAY later."

Well, because Latin literature, even to the Patricians, was not a known concept before they met the Greeks and before they had had a taste of Greek literature.

If the Patricians had known Greek all along, why didn't they give Rome a Greek literature?

"Archaic Greek (Mycenean) is found all over Italy as far north as Rome."

Found? Epigraphically? I missed out on that one!

"The 12 Tables are written in Latin for the plebs. The Patricians knew their laws by heart, since childhood, and spoke perfect Greek since childhood, in their homes, etc. Julius Caesar spoke mostly Greek, says Seutonius!"

Suetonius. Twelve Tables are earlier.

449 BC - 100 BC = 349 years before Caesar was born.

"Latis is also believed to be an Aeolism, and this was believed to be a fact by the people who lived 2000 years ago. I think they knew more about their own history and culture than today's so called language experts and linguists."

Greeks were not usually great linguists. Compared to Persian, Latin actually sounds more Greek, like it has -os (which became -us only later) in the masculine main declinsion, where even Old Persian may have dropped the -s and changed the -o- to -a- ... and of all the Greek dialects that the Greeks had available, the Aeolian was closest.

Feminine main declinsion has α not η and this rules out Attic and Ionian. Leaves either Doric or Aeolic. While Persian has "kê" for "who" the Latin "quis" (and some close by languages even pis) is closer to Greek ... again, what dialect? Attic and I think Doric too has "τις" but Aeolic has "πις"

"But the 12 Tables are based on earlier, much older, Greek laws, written in Greek, in Athens and other city states, the Eraoi Deltoi, as Romanides quotes this from Dionysius and Livy both confirming this."

I look up Livy, you are right that at least Athens was involved.

Livy 3:31

[8] the patricians, who would propose measures advantageous to both parties, [p. 197]and such as might tend to the equalization of liberty.” This proposal the patricians did not reject. They said that “no one should propose laws, except some of the patricians.” When they agreed with respect to the laws, and differed only with respect to the proposer; ambassadors were sent to Athens, Spurius Posthumius Albus, Aulus Manlius Publius Sulpicius Camerinus; and they were ordered to copy out the celebrated laws of Solon, and to become acquainted with the institutions, customs, and laws of the other states of Greece.

Livy 3:32

[6] The ambassadors had now returned with the Athenian laws; the tribunes pressed the more urgently, that a commencement should at length be made of compiling the laws.

Livy 3:33

[5] Next to these were considered the three ambassadors who had gone to Athens; at the same time that the honour might serve as a recompence for so distant an embassy; at the same time they considered that persons acquainted with the foreign laws would be of use in digesting the new code of regulations.

But to get laws from there, ambassadors would have needed to speak Attic, not Mycenaean.

"The true spirit of Rome and all of its legacy is bilingualism in Greek AND Latin (modern forms of course)."

This is true, but I am afraid that this is not so from day 1.

Rome has two faces, like Janus. It is both "the fourth beast of horrible aspect" (Antiochus IV Epiphanes was a vassal of the Republic) and (probably) "ο κατεχων" (possibly even) "το κατεχον".

The latter starts with Julius Caesar, a more normal monarch than the decemviri ("ten horns" in the Apocalypse).

That Greek is used in the Latin liturgy (not saying Bergoglio has a business celebrating it, he could be invalidly ordained even as priest), is normal. Christ was born in the bilingual Roman Empire of the Caesars, not in the Republic of the Ten Men. Or of Scipio Africanus and Asiaticus (who made Antiochus' father a Roman vassal).

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris (Nanterre, actually)
Monday after Trinity
5.VI.2023