Friday, May 14, 2021

The Answer I Tried to Add


Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Another Video with Paulogia, Up to &t=634s · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : The Answer I Tried to Add

11:30 [Sean] "Give me evidence any died for it."

MARTYROLOGIUM ROMANUM : JUNIUS
http://www.liturgialatina.org/martyrologium/16.htm


29 Junii Tertio Kalendas Julii. Luna ...(left out since differring from year to year)
xxvj. C (not sure why this is here)

Romae natalis sanctorum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli, qui eodem anno eodemque die passi sunt, sub Nerone Imperatore. Horum prior, in eadem Urbe, capite ad terram verso cruci affixus, et in Vaticano juxta viam Triumphalem sepultus, totius Orbis veneratione celebratur; posterior autem, gladio animadversus, et via Ostiensi sepultus, pari honore habetur.

I translate: in Rome, the birthday of the Apostles Peter and Paul, who in the same year and on the same day suffered, under Nero Imperator. Of these the former, in the same City, head turned to the earth, fixed to a cross, and buried in Vatican by the Via Triumphalis, is celebrated by the veneration of all the Globe; but the latter, "warned" by the sword, and buried in via Ostiensis, has equal honour.

I did not know that "animadvertere" in Classical Latin "warned" could be used as euphemism for executed.

That's two.

[Found out previous had been delated when trying to post immediately following as an answer = continuation, under it]

Now, the text is in an edition that at its most basic dates from Usuard, like ninth, tenth, century. So, before you trust it, you might want to know the background to Usuard.

Here is my general speculation on how martyrologies started to be compiled in the first place:
https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2019/02/feet-and-martyrologies.html

And here are specifics on the sources of Usuard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrology_of_Usuard

Citing:

_It is preserved to us in innumerable manuscripts, of which Henri Quentin gives a partial list (Martyrologes historiques, 1908, pp. 675–7)._

_The full story of the relation of the texts was unravelled for the first time by Quentin, and the evolution of the early medieval martyrologia culminating in Usuard's work was told by Quentin in the book just cited. Usuard provided what was substantially an abridgement of Ado's Martyrology in a form better adapted for practical liturgical use. In certain points, however, Usuard reverted to a Lyonese recension of Bede's augmented Martyrology, which was attributed to the archdeacon Florus of Lyon._

Now, let's see where we can find earlier sources than Bede, Ado, Florus and their beneficiary Usuard:

_Despite its early date, the Martyrology of 411 does not stand at the head of the eastern martyrological tradition. Rather, it is related to the western tradition as represented in the Martyrologium Hieronymianum.[1] It is a translation of a Greek martyrology of about 362, which was also used as a source for the Martyrologium Hieronymianum.[3] The latest saints included date from the reign of Julian the Apostate (361–363) and may be later additions not found in the original Greek text.[1]_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrology_of_411

[I had cautiously saved both immediately previous and the first comment here before adding both as a new comment and trying to "answer" - technically so, meaningfully continue - it, with following, I found that had been deleted too, but here is this answer too:]

_"Pseudepigraphically attributed to Saint Jerome, the Martyrologium Hieronymianum contains a reference to him derived from the opening chapter of his Life of Malchus (392 AD) where Jerome states his intention to write a history of the saints and martyrs from the apostolic times: "I decided to write [a history, mentioned earlier] from the coming of the savior up to our age, that is, from the apostles, up to the dregs of our time".[1]"_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrologium_Hieronymianum

I disagree with "pseudepigraphically" but of course admit the reference.

[I actually did manage to post it at a second try, after the complaint comment, and am now commenting on, next one to time signature 15:11, see new post]

Schoelcher ...


... n'avait pas raison d'imaginer que l'abolition de l'esclavage requerrait l'athéisme. Ou l'anticléricalisme. Ou la laïcité.

Wilberforce est évoqué dans le livre de Winock ...

Les figures de proue de la gauche depuis 1789 (Français) Broché – 2 mai 2019
de COLLECTIF (Auteur), Michel WINOCK (Rédacteur adjoint)
https://www.amazon.fr/figures-proue-gauche-depuis-1789/dp/2262075999/


... comme étant connu par Victor Schœlcher.

Or, pas seulement que William Wilberforce lui-même était un Anglicane du parti évangéliste - ce n'est pas la Broad Church incroyante, mais la Low Church croyante de manière protestante et fortement dévote - mais un de ses fils, Samuel Wilberforce, va être "l'évêque"* anglicane qui opposa Huxley, s'opposa donc à la théorie de l'évolution, et une de ses filles va épouser un "prêtre"* anglicane qui se convertira à l'Église catholique en 1868. Deux autres** des fils de William, deux des frères de Samuel, sont aussi convertis à l'Église catholique, à savoir Henry William Wilberforce et Robert Isaac Wilberforce.

Par contre, Victor Schœlcher ne va pas juste avoir lutté pour abolir l'exclavage des noirs, il va aussi lutter contre les libertés des familles et de l'église. Je vais citer une page*** du sénat:

« C’est l’école primaire laïque, indique Schoelcher lors d’une conférence devant la Ligue de l’enseignement laïque en 1881, qui, en commençant la culture de l’intelligence, lui donne des bases solides et la fortifie. C’est là que les enfants apprennent à devenir de bons citoyens, connaissant leurs devoirs et leurs droits, capables de juger la valeur politique et surtout morale de ceux qui sollicitent leurs suffrages ».


Au revoir, les libertés des prêtres à enseigner, au revoir, les libertés des familles de choisir leurs écoles!

En 1878, il préside la « Société nationale des amis de l’enfance, ligue pour la propagation du lait maternel ». En 1880, il est vice-président du « Comité supérieur de protection des enfants du premier âge » créé en 1874, premier organisme spécialisé dans les domaines de l’enfance. Il signe, la même année, la proposition de loi de Roussel sur la protection des enfants abandonnés, délaissés ou maltraités pour les soustraire à l’autorité paternelle, proposition qui ne fut adoptée qu’en 1889.
En 1882, il se rend en Angleterre pour étudier la législation et les pratiques à l’égard de la protection publique apportée aux enfants abandonnés.


Au revoir les libertés parentaux, tant qu'il y aura des voisins "concernés" et préjugés contre certains parents. Le mal que l'Angleterre faisait à ses "enfants abandonnés" (et peut-être fait encore) ou qu'on fait en Suède ou Norvège aux nôtres, "délaissés" est donc un des engagements de cette saleté du Grand Orient.

Il s’associe par ailleurs à la préparation de la loi du 19 décembre 1874 qui condamne toute personne faisant travailler de manière périlleuse des enfants âgés de moins de 16 ans ou les obligeant à la mendicité et au vagabondage.


Les Kelly° ont eu de la chance de ne pas être citoyens de la France sous la IIIe République!

Somme toute, Victor Schœlcher se bat contre un esclavage, et celui n'ayant pas vu la métropole, au moins pas pendant l'Ancien Régime, mais pour un autre, plus dur. Les Wilberforce, très pieux, n'ont pas fait ça.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Lendemain de l'Ascension
14.V.2021

* Le clergé anglicane manque succession apostolique, en général. Certain, de tendance catholisante, ont récupéré par consécrations épiscopales cadeau de l'Église orthodoxe d'Antioche, mais ce n'était pas encore le cas.
** Les deux ont été "prêtres" anglicanes, Henry va rester un laïque après la conversion, Robert va mourir juste avant de recevoir une ordination en vrai prêtre catholique.
*** Sénat : Victor Schoelcher (1804-1893)
https://www.senat.fr/evenement/victor_schoelcher/engagements.html

° The Kelly Family - The Story of an Extraordinary Family
1st of May 2021 | Jeanne Østerbæk Flohr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CBBvzUzOjE

Thursday, May 13, 2021

Quelques observations de l'histoire récente, sur un numéro de Marianne


Je commence sur la page 50 du numéro 1170, 30 août - 5 septembre 2019. Ici et de la suite, il va s'agir du dossier sur extrême droite et du dossier sur le socialisme, sauf le dernier paragraphe qui aura affaire de Caroline Fourest [?].*

"aux États fascistes et à leur bilan génocidaire"


Qu'on accepte ou (malgré Gayssot) pas que le bilan du régime National-Socialiste était génocidaire, il y a d'états fascistes dont le bilan ne l'était pas :

  • l'Italie de Mussolini avant la collaboration de Salò
  • l'Autriche de Dollfuss et Schuschnigg (tant qu'il démeurait indépendant du régime NS)**
  • l'Espagne de Franco entre 1939 et 1975
  • le Portugal de Salazar entre 1932 et 1968 (c'était plutôt les anticoloniaux, comme Lumumba qui l'étaient)


et encore des états qui n'étaient pas tout à fait fascistes, mais en avaient des tendances :

  • la Pologne de Józef Piłsudski (pas le moins entre 1926 et 1939, en comptant son successeur Edward Rydz-Śmigły aussi)
  • la Finlande de Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim
  • les territoires contrôlés par Piotr Nikolaïevitch Wrangel


On peut ajouter que la Zone libre jusqu'en 1942, tout en étant fasciste, était tolérable pour Juifs et Tsigans. Le camp d'internement de Jargeau était en zone occupée, le Camp de concentration de Montreuil-Bellay l'était aussi, le Camp de Saliers est certes en Zone libre, mais quelques mois juste avant qu'elle devienne Zone sud, également occupée. Un fascisme français, s'il avait pu arriver au pouvoir sans l'occupation, aurait peut-être pu se passer de ces choses là.

Notons que le spectrum qui rejette à la fois socialisme absolu ou liberticide, et libéralisme faisant le chemin pour le capitalisme, comprend :

  • Fascismes
  • National-Socialisme
  • Social-Démocratie / "Parti Socialiste"
  • Démocrates des États-Unis
  • Démocrates Progressistes du Canada
  • CréditSocial au Canada (différent entre Québec et Colombie-Britannique)
  • Chrétiens-Démocrates
  • Royalistes.


Dont je rejette les National-Socialistes, les Social-Démocrates de Suède, les Démocrates et Démocrates-Progressistes et le Crédit social de Colombie-Britannique pour eugénisme et les premiers deux pour d'autres dérives totalitaires aussi.

Notons finalement que la mouvance "sortir de l'hétérosexualité" prétend la famille traditionnelle capitaliste, il serait plus correct de considérer cette mouvance de socialisme extrême. Si "La Société" allait directement payer les mères pour accoucher, "elle" aurait encore davantage de contrôle totalitaire sur mères et enfants que même les Aides Sociales à l'Enfance en Suède et en Norvège.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Jour de l'Ascension
13.V.2021
(mémoire de St. Robert Bellarmin)

* En fait, l'article n'était pas par Caroline Fourest, ni directement sur elle, mais sur un festival féministe - s'est-elle abstenue de celui-ci? - débuté le 24 septembre 2019 et le compte-rendu ironique (j'avais zappé le second degré en état de fatigue) n'était pas par elle mais par Samuel Piquet, et publié en un numéro ultérieur, fin septembre, je pense le 27 septembre au 3 octobre.
** Vérification que la persécution commence après l'Anschluss:

"Nach dem Anschluss Österreichs 1938 griffen Erlässe Himmlers auch in Österreich. Hier konnte einerseits auf Vorarbeiten der Polizei, wie eine (unvollständige) zentrale Zigeunerregistratur („Zigeuner-Conscription“) als auch auf Gedanken der illegalen NSDAP-Führung, etwa die „Zigeunergedenkschrift“ von Tobias Portschy zurückgegriffen werden."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porajmos#%C3%96sterreich


Notons, les Austrofascistes avaient mis Tobias Portschy en prison, et il le valait bien.

Friday, May 7, 2021

Is Vyasa Proof Anonymous Works Can Easily Get Authors?


Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Paulogia Starting Christianity Without Resurrection (OR trying To) · Debates under That Video · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Is Vyasa Proof Anonymous Works Can Easily Get Authors? · back to Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Paulogia Attacked Tradition

Some scholars, in the wake of Lorenzo Valla, have doubted the ascribed authorship of this, that or sundry work.

Rhetorica ad Herennium (or whichever it was) is not Cicero. Postilla in libros geneseos is not St. Thomas Aquinas. They are anonymous works which somehow ended up being acribed to Cicero (because he was a very prestigious rhetor or orator), and to St. Thomas Aquinas, because he was a very prestigious theologian.

I am not of this school. But to give it some credit, there is in both cases some discrepancy in style from other, undisputed, more certainly known works, of Cicero and of St. Thomas. For Cicero usually does write a somewhat lavish and definitely lively prose, while Rhetorica ad Herennium (or whichever it was) is dry and technical (it is too old to be by St. Thomas Aquinas who often is dry and technical). And St. Thomas writes a somewhat more classic, somewhat less Italian, Medieval Latin, doesn't quite as much take the "ly" to substantivise glosses or phrases as the author of Postilla in libros geneseos does.

I'd solve the postilla conundrum by stating it was a youth work, from when he was in the Benedictine monastery in the Naples region (Roccasecca rings a bell*). He was not a native Latin speaker, and therefore changed his Latin later in response to more Classical Latin among the Dominicans in Paris. Also, in Paris, he was sworn to uphold Historia scholastica, by Petrus Comestor** which uses a Septuagint chronology***, while postilla uses a Vulgate / Masoretic one. That could have been used to argue, it wasn't his, but it is equally a possible indication it was a youth work by him.

For Rhetorica ad Herennium, it is possible Cicero had a friend Herennius who simply needed a text book° and therefore, for once, Cicero wrote a dry text book.

In either case, I see reasons to doubt the current doubts on the authorship.

This means, I am generally less prone than some to say anonymous books get authors as quick as you can say "Johannulus Filius Roberti".°°

Obviously, this makes me more prone than the average to accept Gospel authorships simply as anciently assigned.

So, is there any kind of fact which would have to make even me admit that authorships get assigned to anonymous works? Well, there is Vyasa, contemporary, or purported such to the events in Mahabharata. A guarantee that Mahabharata is not just roughly historical, but in fact very exact and well documented history.

As I think Mahabharata is roughly historical (again, I accept more of it than the average today Westerner), I still think it's inexact and remade a few times over. This means, I don't believe in Vyasa being author of the text we now have. And being also the contemporary he's purported to be.

There is a difference. Vedic Sanskrit is supposed to have been spoken from 1500 to 600 BC, and Classical Sanskrit from 700 BC to 1350 AD. But more importantly, all the earlier parts are supposed to have been transmitted orally, since oldest known and deciphered writing in India are the Brahmi script and Kharosthi, which arose around the time of Pericles. The action in Mahabharata includes the death of Krishna, dated to 3102 BC. While the Indus script would perhaps qualify (if the carbon dates match real dates, which I contest), it is in an unknown language, undeciphered and the texts we have are so short as to be included in seals - very much too short for texts like Mahabharata or even a short book in the Bible. Even a normal average verse in the Bible would be too long for the texts we have in Harappan.

This means, there is more room for doubt than with Cicero or St. Thomas (both are known to be roughly contemporary at least to the two disputed texts that I mentioned). And therefore obviously also more room of doubt than with the Gospellers. It's more comparable to whether Dares Phrygius really wrote Daretis Phrygii de excidio Trojae historia (or rather the original of which this is the Latin translation, if any such existed). Bc, "our" Dares sometimes differs from Homer, and placing Dares as a contemporary to the events (it seems Homer mentioned one such in Iliad song 5), is a way of pretending to have ultimate genuinity in a work only known more than thousand years after purported events.

Ultimately, Dares may be genuine, while any Christian would dispute genuinity of Vyasa, since the timeline contradicts that of Biblical history, but either of them is a very far cry even from Herennian Rhetoric or Postilla in libros geneseos, and let alone from the four Gospels, of which we have surviving fragments in less than 100 years after events, and in which author assignments are within 120 years from earliest of them being written, if correct.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Stanislas of Cracow
7.V.2021

* But it could be the castle he was born in. ** Literally : Peter the Eater. *** Without the second Cainan. ° He might have been teaching rhetoric and have wanted to refer to the greatest rhetor's knowledge, be sure not to miss anything. Quintilian's Institutiones Oratoriae would have done the job, but wasn't around yet. °° That's a rough translation of Jack Robinson.

Thursday, May 6, 2021

On se demande pourquoi la gauche en France ait été tellement anticlérical


On se demande pourquoi la gauche en France ait été tellement anticlérical · Entre Mgr Darboy et le Franc-Mac Thiers, Quelle Complicité ?

Je viens d'entamer:

Les figures de proue de la gauche depuis 1789 (Français) Broché – 2 mai 2019
de COLLECTIF (Auteur), Michel WINOCK (Rédacteur adjoint)
https://www.amazon.fr/figures-proue-gauche-depuis-1789/dp/2262075999/


En Rivarol, je viens de reconfirmer l'impression que j'avais en lisant l'article sur Saint-Simon : Charles Maurras et son Action Française forment un Saint-Simonisme de droite. Même glorification des "industriels" comme les indispensables, entre autres.

Mais ça revient et ça revient comme un fil rouge, à part Maurras : ces gens là ont quasi tous détesté l'église. Blanqui - j'aurais préféré qu'un certain Boulevard soit resté Saint-Jacques - est un des gens qui imposent l'athéisme comme norme dans un certain type de loges (je parie Grand Orient), Michelet aurait pu être un national-libéral ou chrétien-social à part sa haine ou son mépris envers le Christianisme traditionnel (il préférait Rénaissance, Réforme, Lumières, Libéralisme, si ma mémoire ne me trompe pas), Proudhon avait au moins la clarté d'esprit (et d'anti-marxisme) de ne pas préférer le dogmatisme de Luther à celui de l'Église catholique.

Peut-être le gallicanisme avait été trop antipopulaire? Trop "on s'en foût des condamnés à mort" ... un colloque à l'Université d'Avignon avait dit (un des papers) que pour un condamné à mort avant la Révolution, confession, oui, mais pas de communion. Ce seront les Ultramontains qui réhabilitent le droit des condamnés à mort de communier, après confession. Étienne d'Orves en aura été heureux.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Miracle de St. Jean
6.V.2021

Romae sancti Joannis, Apostoli et Evangelistae, ante Portam Latinam; qui, ab Epheso, jussu Domitiani, vinctus Romam est perductus, et, judicante Senatu, ante eamdem portam in olei ferventis dolium missus, exivit inde purior et vegetior quam intravit.

Sunday, May 2, 2021

What is Going On Back in the Middle Ages?


New blog on the kid: Russia and US - Abortions · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Charlotte of Savoy married the future Lewis XI of France when she was 9 - what about her ancestry? · What is Going On Back in the Middle Ages?

I am not sure why I get 14 women and 16 men in these marriages. We can rule out the idea of gay marriage directly, even a momentary sodomy would have got people executed back then. I probably did some mistake. Not sure which one. However, I think it may give a fairly good idea of what ages people were married back then, even so.

Before looking at the statistics, please note, some ages are not canonic. Let us take a look:

I answer that, Since marriage is effected by way of a contract, it comes under the ordinance of positive law like other contracts. Consequently according to law (cap. Tua, De sponsal. impub.) it is determined that marriage may not be contracted before the age of discretion when each party is capable of sufficient deliberation about marriage, and of mutual fulfilment of the marriage debt, and that marriages otherwise contracted are void. Now for the most part this age is the fourteenth year in males and the twelfth year in women: but since the ordinances of positive law are consequent upon what happens in the majority of cases, if anyone reach the required perfection before the aforesaid age, so that nature and reason are sufficiently developed to supply the lack of age, the marriage is not annulled. Wherefore if the parties who marry before the age of puberty have marital intercourse before the aforesaid age, their marriage is none the less perpetually indissoluble.


My emphasis. It is from Tertiae Partis Supplementum, Quaestio 58, Article 5. I have cited only the corpus of the article. Now, two or three** of the following ladies married before 12 and one man (a King to be, Lewis XI), before 14.

09 10 11 12 12 12 14 15 15 16 17 19 23 24
09 10 12 12 14 14 14 15 15 16 17 19 23 24
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14

13 15 16 16 17 17 19 20 20 20 21 21 24 27 27 36
13 16 16 16 17 19 20 20 20 21 21 21 27 27 27 36
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

So, what is going on?

Were European monarchies run by people like Epstein? Were young brides married off for the fun of tormenting the female gender? Not the least.

Getting married in your teens was simply considered normal. And while they had much more tolerance than the modern world for youth on the wedding night, they had, in return, zero tolerance for abortion. Not only a single act of sodomy, as already mentioned, but also a single killing of someone not born, could land you on the road to a very quick démise. Not modern death row, where lawyers may protract the anguish by searching for signs of insanity (which might land someone out of death penalty), but quickly executed death penalty.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
IV. Sunday after Easter
2.V.2021

* Tertiae Partis Supplementum, Quaestio 58, Article 5.
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5058.htm#article5


** Some persons have two alternative or a range of alternative birth years, and in those cases, I have taken extreme age possibilities making two different lists per sex. This is typical of the Middle Ages.