Monsignor Schneider, was the canon law Decree of Gratian Magisterium ?

The theory of the automatic loss of the papacy due to heresy remains only an opinion, and even St. Robert Bellarmin noticed this and did not present it as a teaching of the Magisterium itself. The perennial papal Magisterium never taught such an option.

So far Athanasius Schneider.

Bishop Schneider: About the Validity of the Pontificate of Pope Francis
September 18, 2023, Bishop Athanasius Schneider
https://www.gloriadei.io/articles/bishop-schneider-about-the-validity-of-the-pontificate-of-pope-francis/

Now, here is some comment on canon law ...

2.1. Il canone Si papa a fide devius (D.40 c.6) del Decretum Gratiani.

Il canone sesto della distinzione 40 del Decretum Gratiani ammette una prima deroga. Dopo aver presentato il caso di un papa non curantesi della salvezza della propria anima, inutile e "a bono taciturnus", osserva che un siffatto pontefice e un vero flagello, ma che nessun uomo può aver la presunzione di redarguirlo e correggerlo, poiche egli e colui che tutti giudica e da nessuno può essere giudicato, a meno che non "deprehendatur a fide devius".

Possiamo fare una duplice osservazione: da una parte si esclude assolutamente la possibilità di giudicare il papa per indegnità morale, dall'altra si ammette contemporaneamente un'eccezione.

HISTORIA DE LA IGLESIA Y DE LAS INSTITUClONES ECLESIASTICAS.
TRABAJOS EN HOMENAJE A FERRAN VALLS I TABERNER Vol. X, Barcelona 1989
https://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/a/a062665.pdf

The position of St. Robert Bellarmine is in fact a comment on this part of the canon law.

But canon law binding on the Church universal is magisterium. And the Decree of Gratian was so./HGL

Est-ce vrai pour les Allemagnes du Sud aussi ?

Le Moyen Âge en Allemagne, Scandinavie et les Îles Britanniques ... · Est-ce vrai pour les Allemagnes du Sud aussi ?

Je ne parle pas que des Bundesländer dans le Sud, Rhénanie-Palatinat, Sarre, Hesse, et encore plus vers le Sud Bade-Wurtemberg dans l'Ouest et Bavière dans l'Est.

Je parle aussi de chaque pays de l'Autriche, des Cantons Germanophones de la Suisse, de Liechtenstein et d'Alto Adige / Tyrolie Méridionale.

Non, ces pays là, hormis certains cantons de la Suisse, n'ont pas subi la Réforme.

La relation au Moyen âge est différent. Parmi ces pays, ce que je connais le mieux est en dehors de l'Allemagne fédérale, Autriche. Et pour imaginer bien Autriche, pensez la Vienne comme Rome, Salzbourg comme une petite ville italienne, je parle ici des villes, pas des pays, et les entourages comme la Bretagne, mais en viticole.

En d'autres mots, on a préservé l'esprit du Moyen âge, parce qu'on n'a pas subi la Réforme. On l'a même sublimé, voir le Baroque, qui prédomine sur le Moyen âge en proportion que les choses deviennent urbaines, tandis que le Moyen âge prédomine encore un peu sur le Baroque dans les campagnes (hormis les églises, qui même en campagne sont plus souvent baroque que gothiques).

Prenons un exemple, pas loin du nom de la rose ... Adson va devenir novice et ensuite moine à Melk ... contrairement aux personnages d'Umberto Eco, ce monastère bénédictin existe.

Auf dem Klosterfelsen befand sich nach Ansicht mehrerer Autoren in der Römerzeit das Kastell Melk, archäologische Nachweise dafür fehlen jedoch. Ab Anfang des 11. Jahrhunderts war Melk ein Machtzentrum der Babenberger in der Mark Ostarrichi (Österreich). Melk war bevorzugte Grablege der Babenberger und seit dem 13. Oktober 1014 Begräbnisstätte des heiligen Koloman. Handschriften in der Stiftsbibliothek Melk deuten darauf hin, dass schon unter Markgraf Leopold I. eine Gemeinschaft von Priestern eine Art Kollegiatstift am Ort unterhielt.

Durch die Erweiterung der Mark nach Norden und Osten entstanden neue Zentren. Melk sank in seiner Bedeutung, blieb aber Grablege der Babenberger. Im Investiturstreit gewährte Markgraf Leopold II. dem Passauer Bischof, Altmann von Passau, Asyl. Dieser war aus Passau wegen seiner Papsttreue vertrieben worden. Altmann hatte vermutlich erheblichen Anteil an Leopolds Entscheidung, auf dem Felsen oberhalb der Stadt und der Donau ein Kloster zu errichten. Am 21. März 1089 zogen Benediktinermönche des Stiftes Lambach und ihr Abt Sigibold in das neu erbaute Kloster auf dem Berg ein.[2]

Da das Kloster eine markgräfliche Gründung war, erhielt es 1122 eine Exemtion: Es wurde aus der Zuständigkeit des Bistums Passau ausgegliedert und direkt dem Papst unterstellt.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stift_Melk

Je traduis :

Sur Le Rocher du Monastère, selon l'opinion de plusieurs auteurs, se trouva dans les siècles romaines le château Melk, mais on en manque des preuves archéologiques. À partir du début de l'XIe siècle, Melk était un centre du pouvoir des Babenberger de la Marche Ostarrichi (Autriche).* Melk était la sépulture préféré des Babenberger et depuis le 13 octobre 1014 le tombeau de saint Koloman. Dans la bibliothèque monastique de Melk, des manuscrits suggèrent que déjà sous le margrave Léopold I une communauté de prêtres entretenirent une forme de collégiale à l'endroit.

Par l'élargissement de la Marche vers le nord et vers l'est, de nouveaux centres se sont formés. Melk perdit en importance mais demeura la sépulture des Babenberg. Dans la Querelle des Investitures** le margrave Léopold II accorda asyle à l'évêque de Passau, [saint] Altmann de Passau. Celui-ci avait été exulsé de Passau par sa fidélité au pape** et joua probablement un rôle majeur dans la décision de Léopold d'ériger un monastère sur le rocher en dehors de la ville*** qui, une fois complété, vit l'entrée de moines bénédictins du monastère Lambach et leur abbé Sigibold au 21 mars 1089.

Puisque le monastère était une fondation du margraviat, il obtint une exemption en 1122, découpé de l'autorité de l'évêché Passau et directement soumis au Pape.

Après ceci, vous allez peut-être vous attendre à un bâtiment genre le monastère de Vadstène. Que nenni.

Stift Melk
C.Stadler/Bwag - Eigenes Werk CC BY-SA 4.0

Deutsch: Hallo, du darfst mein Foto kostenlos nutzen, aber nenne mich bitte als Fotograf, beispielsweise „Foto: C.Stadler/Bwag“ oder © C.Stadler/Bwag; CC-BY-SA-4.0. Auf mehr Angaben bestehe ich nicht - im Gegensatz zu manch anderen, die die Vorgaben der unten angeführten Lizenzierung auf Punkt und Beistrich einfordern.
English: Feel free to use my photos, but please mention me as the author like © C.Stadler/Bwag or © C.Stadler/Bwag; CC-BY-SA-4.0 (that's good enough) and if you want send me a message: bwag@gmx.net.

Du pur baroque, même si la fondation remonte au Moyen âge. La nouvelle église monastique fut consacrée en 1743. Le Moyen âge existe certes, mais il est couvert du baroque.

Au croisé Babenberg (qui en pleine Troisième croisade s'obfusqua avec Richard de l'Angleterre), on ajoute donc volontiers Jean III Sobieski, le sauveur (avec Eugène de Savoie, encore Empire germanique à l'époque et sous la Sainte Vierge) de Vienne contre les Ottomans.

Dans l'intellect, le baroque veut dire que St. Thomas d'Aquin n'est pas d'abord dilué par la scholastique luthérienne et ensuite dissipé par Schleiermacher, il est au contraire solidifié par Suarez et Bellarmin, sans d'oublier Cajétan.

Dans les sentiments, ça veut dire Sinngedichte par Angelus Silesius, l'humour de Simplicissimus, ou probablement de cette époque, quoique placé dans le Moyen âge, Till Eulenspiegel (très différent de Till l'Espiègle de Coster !) — pardon, l'humour de Till Eulenspiegel vient en effet de la Renaissance, première édition eu début du XVIe siècle et seconde édition de 1515, et la musique de ... la période rococo /Biedermeier. Tout ce qui se trouve à partir de Haydn et jusqu'à Schubert, c'est bon à écouter, comme un vin de l'année dans le Heurig est bon à boire.

Pour moi, Autriche a beaucoup plus de rationnalité que la Suède, hélas pas exactement tolérant vis-à-vis la marginalité. Si je voudrais retourner en Autriche, il vaudrait mieux que j'eusse d'abord une réussite solide.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Les martyrs Sts. Félix et Constance
19.IX.2023

Nuceriae natalis sanctorum Martyrum Felicis et Constantiae, qui passi sunt sub Nerone.

* Autriche dans le sens médiéval, c'est Vienne, Basse-Autriche, Haute-Autriche, juste trois des neuf pays de l'Autriche actuelle.
** Époque quand la papauté était parfois persécutée ! Si Innocent III (regna 1198 à 1216) était le plus puissant des papes, par rapport au pouvoir séculier, son prédécesseur quelques décennies avant, Innocent II (regna 1130 à 1143) était peut-être le moins puissant, il était persécuté. Certains évoquent qu'il avait forcé l'Empereur à faire pénitence à Canosse, selon ce que j'ai lu, c'est plus vraisemblable que la pénitence hypocrite de l'Empereur força le pape à abandonner sa seule arme contre le malfaiteur.
*** Choix très symbolique : l'église étant bâti "sur cette roche" et Notre Seigneur ayant souffert "en dehors de la cité" ...

Paper formats (A4 system)

A0 840.9 mm * 1189.2 mm A1 840.9 mm * 594.6 mm A2 420.4 mm * 594.6 mm A3 420.4 mm * 297.3 mm A4 210.2 mm * 297.3 mm

A5 210.2 mm * 148.7 mm A6 105.1 mm * 148.7 mm A7 105.1 mm * 74.3 mm A8 52.555 mm * 74.3 mm A9 52.555 mm * 37.15 mm

840.9 mm * 1189.2 mm = 0.999,998,28 m² ~ 1 m²

Le Moyen Âge en Allemagne, Scandinavie et les Îles Britanniques ...

Le Moyen Âge en Allemagne, Scandinavie et les Îles Britanniques ... · Est-ce vrai pour les Allemagnes du Sud aussi ?

Ou plus précisément sa survivance après la fin du XVe siècle.

La question était posé dans quora suécophone.

Je n'y ai pas ajouté encore une réponse, je vais plutôt ici faire fructifier les réponses déjà données :

Johan Molin considère que pas mal de la culture médiévale était liée au Catholicisme, et qu'elle a donc été éradiquée pendant la Réforme.

Urban Jarvid considère que la vivacité intellectuelle baissa considérablement à la Réforme, parce qu'on dépensait tellement d'énergie sur le maintien de celle-ci par une répression intense. D'où un frein considérable à l'évolution culturelle et intellectuelle. Pas totale, bien entendu.

Je dirais qu'en effet, intellectuellement en 1600, la vie intellectuelle était plus pauvre dans ces pays (surtout en Scandinavie), parce qu'on avait perdu pas mal de culture spirituelle (les Révélations de Sainte Brigitte et la dévotion brigittine, par exemple) par la Réforme, et on avait eu moins de loisir d'importer des nouveautés des pays comme Espagne ou Italie, à part des choses purement extérieurs.

En certains cas, des chateaux commencés à la fin du Moyen âge n'avaient pas eu d'occasion d'être rebâtis ... ça dit, ces pays ont leur portion de l'architecture de la Renaissance, notamment une Renaissance à la mode des Pays Bas (les parties historiques de Malmö, par exemple).

Entre le milieu du XIIIe siècle et 1346, ceci était un château royal, en 1346, avec une toiture baissé par rapport d'avant, ceci était le monastère de Vadstène :

Av <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thuresson" title="User:Thuresson">Thuresson</a> - <span class="int-own-work" lang="sv">Eget arbete</span>, CC BY-SA 2.5, Länk

Et à partir de la Réforme, pas d'ambitions à moderniser un monastère. Ni pendant les décennies qu'il restait en cette fonction, ni après, quand par exemple à partir de la Guerre de Trente Ans, ce bâtiment servait aux Invalides ... passons au chateau de la capitale, du Moyen âge et de la Renaissance :

Tre Kronor från Slottsbacken, oljemålning 1661 av Govert Camphuysen. Högborgens rikssalslänga visas framför kärntornet och Johan III:s kungsvåning mellan de två tornen till vänster. Längst ner till höger lejonkulan.
Tre Kronor / Les Trois Couronnes, vu de Slottsbacken, peinture par Govert Camphuysen, en 1661 ... [domaine public]

Notons, ceci a été brûlé en 1697, le 7 mai. Je note que les incendie historiques de Stockholm commencent en 1625, après le Moyen âge. En Örebro on a eu deux incendies le Moyen âge, la première peut-être en 1369 et involontaire, peut-être plutôt déjà en 1364 et alors perpétré par Albert II de Mecklembourg. Celle de 1380 était dans la résistance nationale contre le pouvoir d'Albert de Suède (Albert III de Mecklembourg).

La survie du Moyen âge dans les pays du Nord a été inégale, la culture matérielle a été mieux préservé à son état médiévale que dans pas mal de pays sur le continent, mais si on veut les promesses de Notre Seigneur à Sainte Brigitte, la plupart du temps, depuis la Réforme, on les cherche plutôt en Espagne ou Autriche qu'en Suède.

Si on aime l'architecture médiévale et se contente des bribes de la spiritualité médiévale données de temps en temps par les curés luthériens, on peu très bien s'intégrer en Suède. C'est très chic. Si par contre on cherche un peu de cohérence, intellectuelle, spirituelle, dévotions et hagiographies dans la perspective catholique (difficile de comprendre les visions de Ste Brigitte pour quelqu'un qui nie le Purgatoire !), il vaut mieux s'exiler, plus ou moins, d'un exile interne, ou, dans mon cas, d'un exile externe, je me trouve à Paris.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Joseph de Cupertino*
18.IX.2023

* Le saint du jour se trouve après le Moyen âge :

Auximi, in Piceno, sancti Josephi a Cupertino, Sacerdotis ex Ordine Minorum Conventualium et Confessoris; quem Clemens Papa Decimus tertius in Sanctorum numerum retulit.

Age at first marriage and at death - a few more

Seven Generations Women, Age at First Marriage · Age at first marriage and at death - a few more

I Anna of Masovia, Duchess of Racibórz

Anna of Masovia (c. 1270-after July 13, 1324[1]) was a Princess of Masovia and was a member of the House of Piast.

She was the daughter and only child of Konrad II of Masovia and Hedwig, daughter of Bolesław II the Bald. Between 1289 and 1290 Anna married Przemysław of Racibórz.

A II Anna of Racibórz (Polish: Anna raciborska; b. 1292/98 – d. 1 January/21 August 1340), was a Polish princess member of the House of Piast in the Racibórz branch and by marriage Duchess of Opawa and Racibórz.

In 1318 Anna married with Duke Nicholas II of Opava, illegitimate grandson of King Ottokar II of Bohemia.

a III Euphemia, married Siemowit III of Masovia

In 1335, Siemowit married Euphemia, daughter of Nicholas II of Opava.

a IV Euphemia (-21 June 1418/9 December 1424), married Władysław Opolczyk

By 1369, Vladislaus married secondly Euphemia of Masovia (b. c. 1352 – d. by 9 December 1424), daughter of Duke Siemowit III of Masovia.

V Hedwig (b. 1376/78 – d. after 13 May 1390), married before 25 January 1390 to Duke Vygantas-Alexander of Kernavė.

b IV Margaret (before 1358-14 May 1388/4 April 1396), married firstly to Casimir IV, Duke of Pomerania and secondly to Henry VII of Brzeg.

In 1369 Margaret married her first husband Casimir IV, Duke of Pomerania, son of Bogislaw V, Duke of Pomerania and Elizabeth of Poland.

Two years after the death of her first husband in 1379, Margaret remarried to Henry VII of Brzeg. They had two children.

Margaret's date of death is disputed but it is believed that she died on either 14 May 1388 or 4 April 1396. Her husband died in 1399.

b III Margaret of Opava, married John Henry of Moravia

Margaret of Opava (Czech: Markéta Opavská, Silesian: Margaret s Uopawje, German: Margaret von Troppau, Polish: Małgorzata opawska; 1330–1363) was the youngest daughter of Nicholas II of Opava, (grandson of Přemysl II, Otakar, King of Bohemia) and his third wife Anna of Racibórz. She became Margravine consort of Moravia by her marriage to John Henry of Moravia (1353).

c IV Catherine of Moravia (March 1353 – 1378), consort of Henry, Duke of Falkenberg

d IV Elizabeth of Moravia/Elizabeth of Meissen (1355 – 20 November 1400). Married William I, Margrave of Meissen.

Elizabeth was married to William I, House of Wettin in Meissen, spring 1366.

OTHER

I Eudoxia of Kiev (c. 1131 – c. 1187)

In 1154, Eudoxia married Mieszko III the Old, Duke of Greater Poland, who had recently lost his first wife, Princess Elisabeth of Hungary.

II Anastasia of Greater Poland (Polish: Anastazja Mieszkówna; b. ca. 1164 – d. aft. 31 May 1240), was Duchess of Pomerania by marriage to Bogislaw I, Duke of Pomerania, and regent from 1187 until 1208 during the minority of her sons Bogislaw II and Casimir II .

On 26 April 1177 Anastasia married Bogislaw I, Duke of Pomerania.

OTHER

I Sophia of Minsk Died 5 May 1198

In 1154, at the age of circa fourteen, Sophia was betrothed to Valdemar as a symbol of alliance between Sweden and Denmark: she was at this time described as a pretty girl with promise of becoming a beauty.

a II Sophia (1159–1208), married Siegfried III, Count of Weimar-Orlamünde

(first son born after 1182)

b II Ingeborg (1175–1236), married King Philip II of France

Ingeborg was married to Philip II Augustus of France on 14 August 1193,[2] after the death of Philip's first wife Isabelle of Hainaut (d. 1190).

c II Helena (c.1177/80–1233), married William of Lüneburg

In the summer of 1202 in Hamburg, Helena married Lord William of Lüneburg. Helena and William had a son, the future Duke, Otto I, The Child.

d II Richeza of Denmark (c. 1180/83 –1220), married King Eric X of Sweden

1210 (?) heiratete Rikissa König Erik X. (1180–1216), der seit 1208 König von Schweden war.

a III Sofia (död före 24 april 1241), gift med furst Henrik Burwin III av Mecklenburg (död 1277/1278)

Hon gifte sig före 15 februari 1237 med Henrik Burwin III av Mecklenburg.

b III Marianne, pommersk furstinna[2][3], kallad Mariana och Marina ?

c III Ingeborg, gift med Birger jarl.

Ingeborg Eriksdotter, född någon gång mellan sina föräldrars giftermål 1210 och sin fars död 1216, död 17 juni 1254, var en svensk prinsessa, dotter till kung Erik Knutsson och drottning Rikissa, gift med jarlen Birger Magnusson och stammoder för kungaätten Bjälboätten.

Ingeborg Eriksdotter (c. 1212 – 17 June 1254) was a Swedish princess and duchess,

The marriage was contracted relatively near the time when Ingeborg's brother the once-deposed Eric XI returned from exile in Denmark in 1234.

a IV Rikissa Birgersdotter, born 1238, married firstly 1251 Haakon Haakonsson the Young, co-king of Norway, and secondly, Henry I, Prince of Werle

Rikissa Birgersdotter, also known as Rixa, Richeza, Richilda and Regitze, (c. 1237 – after 1288) was Queen of Norway as the wife of the co-king Haakon Haakonson, and later Princess of Werle as wife of Henry I, Prince of Mecklenburg-Güstrow.

a V Rikissa av Mecklenburg-Werle (died 1312) married Albert II, Duke of Brunswick-Göttingen

Rixa of Werle married on 10 January 1284 with Duke Albert II, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg.

a VI Adelaide (died: c. 1311), married John, Landgrave of Lower Hesse

In 1306, John married Adelaide of Brunswick-Lüneburg, the daughter of Duke Albert II of Brunswick-Göttingen. Like her husband, she died of the plague in 1311 in Kassel. She was buried beside her husband in Annaberg monastery,Saxony.

John and Adelaide had a daughter,

a VII Elisabeth (d. 1339). She married Otto VI of Ochsenstein.

b IV Catherine of Sweden, born 1245, married Siegfried, Count of Anhalt

Catherine Birgersdotter of Bjelbo (fl. 1245–1289) was a 13th-century Swedish noblewoman of the House of Bjelbo (Folkungaätten). She was Princess consort of Anhalt-Zerbst.

On 17 October 1259, Catherine married Siegfried I, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst(c. 1230 – 1298) regent the Principality of Anhalt and a member of the House of Ascania.

b V Princess Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst (c.1260 - aft. 9 January 1290); married Ludwig of Hakeborn (c.1235 - 5 October 1298), son of Albrecht III, Count of Hackeborn

c IV Ingeborg of Sweden, born ca. 1254, died 30 June 1302, married John I of Saxony, Duke of Lauenburg in 1270

c V Helen (*c. 1272–1337*), married with (1) Günther IX, Count of Schwarzburg-Blankenburg (*died 1289*), (2) in c. 1297 Adolph VI, Count of Holstein-Schauenburg

d V Elisabeth (*c. 1274– before 1306*), married in 1287 with Valdemar IV, Duke of Schleswig.

Age at first marriage

11 12 13 13 13 14 14 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 23 23
10 11 11 12 12 12 14 14 14 15 16 18 17 19 19 21
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

23 25 26 30
21 22 22 27
17 18 19 20

Min is 10 or 11.
Lower quartile is 12 or 13 to 14.
Median is 15 to 16 or 16 to 17
Higher quartile is 19 to 21 or 23
Max is 27 or 30.

Died at

13 23 30 31 33 39 40 44 45 48 48 49 52 55 56 56
11 22 29 30 30 32 37 41 43 45 47 48 50 52 54 55
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

58 61 65 72 76
57 60 64 65 75
17 18 19 20 21

Min 11 to 13
Lower quartile is 32 to 39
Median is 47 or 48
Higher quartile is 55 or 56
Max is 75 or 76.

Here, 8 or 9 out of 20 (with known ages at marriage) married before 15. Not 25 % as previous sample, but 40 to 45 %.

Some birth years were not verifiable on the wikipedia, even if jumping between several languages. Possibly, with those birth years, we would be dealing with girls marrying before 15 also? I don't know./HGL

PS, in case you wondered, no I don't think the lower median lifespan for these married women is due to overmuch childbearing.

00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 02 02 02 02
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 02 02
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

02 02 02 02 02 02 03 03 03 03 03 03 04 05 05
02 02 02 02 02 02 02 03 03 03 03 03 04 05 05
21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35

05 05 05 05 05 06 06 06 07 07 07 08 08 08 10 10 11 11 11 12
05 05 05 05 05 06 06 06 06 07 07 07 07 08 10 10 10 11 11 11
36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55

Min childless
Low 2 children
Med 3 children
High 7 (8) children
Max 11 or 12 children

If half are dying before 48 years, and more than half are having 3 or fewer children, it is something else./HGL

PPS - for fertility rate: 201 to 210 children on 80 to 82 women (the 55 + 25 to 27 nuns and otherwise unmarried, not dying young).

2.451 - 2.625 children per woman./HGL

Seven Generations Women, Age at First Marriage

Seven Generations Women, Age at First Marriage · Age at first marriage and at death - a few more

Taken from wikipedia, after stumbling across Mary of Guelders, Queen of Scotland.

I Agnieszka (ur. pomiędzy 1312 a 1321 r. – zm. 6 lub 7 lipca 1362 r.) – księżna raciborska, żona Leszka.

Leszek raciborski
od 1332 do 1335
Ludwik I brzeski
od między 1341 a 1345

II Margaret of Brieg (1342–1386) was a daughter of Ludwik I the Fair and his wife, Agnes of Sagan. She was Duchess consort of Bavaria by her marriage to Albert I, Duke of Bavaria.

In Passau after 19 July 1353, Margaret and Albert were married.

source: Stein, Robert (2017). Magnanimous Dukes and Rising States: The Unification of the Burgundian Netherlands, 1380-1480. Oxford University Press.

III Margaret of Bavaria (1363 – 23 January 1424, Dijon) was Duchess of Burgundy by marriage to John the Fearless.

On 12 April 1385, at the Burgundian double wedding in Cambrai, she married John, Count of Nevers, the son and heir of Philip the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, and Margaret of Dampierre, Countess of Flanders, Artois and Burgundy;[3] at the same time her brother, William II, Duke of Bavaria, married Margaret of Burgundy.

IV Mary of Burgundy, Duchess of Cleves (1393 – 30 October 1466) was the second child of John the Fearless and Margaret of Bavaria,[1] and an elder sister of Philip the Good.[2]

Born in Dijon, she became the second wife of Adolph, Count of Mark in May 1406.

V Catherine of Cleves (25 May 1417 – 10 February 1479) was Duchess of Guelders by marriage to Arnold, Duke of Guelders. She acted as regent of Guelders during the absence of her spouse in 1450. The Hours of Catherine of Cleves was commissioned for her.

Catherine lived with her parents until 1431, despite already having been married the year before.

VI Mary of Guelders (Dutch: Maria van Gelre; c. 1434/1435 – 1 December 1463) was Queen of Scotland by marriage to King James II of Scotland. She ruled as regent of Scotland from 1460 to 1463.

Mary married King James II of Scotland at Holyrood Abbey on 3 July 1449.

VII a) Margaret was born between 1453 and 1460,[2][3] the daughter of James II of Scotland and Mary of Guelders.

William Crichton, 3rd Lord Crichton of Auchingoul (grandson of Lord Chancellor Crichton) is said to have "deliberately debauched Margaret" (James III's youngest and favourite sister), after discovering that his wife had been seduced by the king.[6] Regardless of the truth of this story, Margaret did become Lord Crichton's mistress, which led to her disgrace and reputation for immorality and corruption. Their illegitimate daughter, also named Margaret, was born between 1478 and 1485 and raised in the royal court.[7]

VII b) Mary Stewart, Countess of Arran (13 May 1453 – May 1488)

Mary was married to her first husband, Thomas Boyd, Earl of Arran, when she was thirteen years old, before 26 April 1467.

Other daughters of II

iij Joanna of Bavaria (c. 1362 – 31 December 1386), a member of the House of Wittelsbach, was German queen from 1376 and Queen of Bohemia from 1378 until her death, by her marriage with the Luxembourg king Wenceslaus.

iij Katherine of Bavaria (c. 1361–1400 AD, Hattem), was the eldest child of Albert I, Duke of Bavaria and his first wife Margaret of Brieg.[1] She was Duchess of Guelders and Jülich by her marriage to William I of Guelders and Jülich.

Katherine was betrothed in 1368 to Edward, Duke of Guelders, son of Reginald II of Guelders and Eleanor of England.[2] However, Edward died when Katherine was only ten years of age.

Katherine was subsequently married in 1379 to William I of Guelders and Jülich, son of William II, Duke of Jülich. Her husband was Edward's nephew.

iij Joanna Sophia of Bavaria (c. 1373 – 15 November 1410) was the youngest daughter of Albert I, Duke of Bavaria and his first wife Margaret of Brieg. She was a member of the House of Wittelsbach.

On 13 June 1395, Joanna Sophia married Albert IV, Duke of Austria in Vienna.

iu Margaret (26 June 1395, Vienna–24 December 1447), married in Landshut 25 November 1412 to Duke Henry XVI of Bavaria.

Other daughters of III

iu Margaret of Nevers (French: Marguerite; December 1393 – February 1442), also known as Margaret of Burgundy, was Dauphine of France and Duchess of Guyenne as the daughter-in-law of King Charles VI of France. A pawn in the dynastic struggles between her family and in-laws during the Hundred Years' War, Margaret was regarded as the future Queen of France at two separate times, as a result of her two marriages: first to the Dauphin and second to the Duke of Brittany.

In Paris in May 1403, it was agreed that Margaret would marry the new Dauphin of France, Duke Louis of Guyenne.[1] A double marriage took place at the end of August 1404,[4] as part of Philip the Bold's efforts to maintain a close relationship with France by ensuring that the next Queen of France would be his granddaughter.[1] ... Per Philip's instructions, Pot told Margaret that, still being a fairly young widow, she ought to marry and have children soon, more so because Philip himself was now a childless widower. She eventually yielded, and the marriage was celebrated on 10 October 1423.[2]

iu Anne of Burgundy, Duchess of Bedford (French: Anne de Bourgogne) (30 September 1404 – 13 November 1432) was a daughter of John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy (1371–1419), and his wife Margaret of Bavaria (1363–1423).

In June 1423 at Troyes, Anne married John of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Bedford, son of Henry IV of England, a marriage agreed by the terms of the 1423 Treaty of Amiens.[1]

iu Agnes of Burgundy (1407 – 1 December 1476), duchess of Bourbon (Bourbonnais) and Auvergne, countess of Clermont, was the daughter of John the Fearless (1371–1419) and Margaret of Bavaria.[1] Her maternal grandparents were Albert I, Duke of Bavaria and Margaret of Brieg. Her paternal grandparents were Philip the Bold and Margaret III, Countess of Flanders.

In 1425, Charles renewed his earlier betrothal by marrying Agnes of Burgundy (1407–1476), daughter of John the Fearless.[2]

u Marie de Bourbon (1428 – 7 July 1448) was a French noblewoman. She was the eldest daughter of Charles I, Duke of Bourbon and Agnes of Burgundy, and married John II, who was styled Duke of Calabria and acceded to the title of Duke of Lorraine after Marie's death. Marie was thus styled Duchess of Calabria.

The marriage contract was signed in April 1438,[1] however, the ceremony took place around 1444 when she was older and would be able to consummate the marriage.

u Isabella of Bourbon, Countess of Charolais (c. 1434 – 25 September 1465) was the second wife of Charles the Bold, Count of Charolais and future Duke of Burgundy. She was a daughter of Charles I, Duke of Bourbon and Agnes of Burgundy, and the mother of Mary of Burgundy, heiress of Burgundy.[1]

She married Charles on 30 October 1454 at Lille, France, and they were reportedly very much in love, perhaps because of (or causing) her husband's faithfulness.

u Margaret of Bourbon (5 February 1438 – 24 April 1483) was the daughter of Charles I, Duke of Bourbon (1401–1456) and Agnes of Burgundy (1407–1476).

On 6 April 1472, she became the first wife of Philip II, Duke of Savoy (1443–1497).

uj Louise (1476–1531), married Charles d'Orléans, Count of Angoulême,

Charles married Louise of Savoy, daughter of Philip the Landless and Margaret of Bourbon, on 16 February 1488.

uij Marguerite de Navarre (French: Marguerite d'Angoulême, Marguerite d'Alençon; 11 April 1492 – 21 December 1549), also known as Marguerite of Angoulême and Margaret of Navarre, was a princess of France, Duchess of Alençon and Berry,[1] and Queen of Navarre by her second marriage to King Henry II of Navarre.

At the age of seventeen Marguerite was married to Charles IV of Alençon, aged twenty, by the decree of King Louis XII (who also arranged the marriage of his ten-year-old daughter, Claude, to Francis). With this decree, Marguerite was forced to marry a generally kind but practically illiterate man for political expediency—"the radiant young princess of the violet-blue eyes... had become the bride of a laggard and a dolt". She had been bartered to save the royal pride of Louis, by keeping the County of Armagnac in the family. There were no offspring from this marriage.

more daughters of iu, Agnes of Burgundy

u Catharine of Bourbon (1440 in Liège – 21 May 1469 in Nijmegen) was Duchess of Guelders from 1465-1469 by her marriage to Adolf, Duke of Guelders. She was a daughter of Charles I, Duke of Bourbon and his wife Agnes of Burgundy.

On 28 December 1463 in Bruges, she married Adolf II, Duke of Guelders, who succeeded his father Arnold as Duke of Guelders in 1465.

uj Philippa of Guelders (French: Philippe de Gueldres;[1] 9 November 1464 – 28 February 1547), was a Duchess consort of Lorraine. She served as regent of Lorraine in 1509 during the absence of her son. She was the great-grandmother to Mary, Queen of Scots.

Philippa was born in Brabant in 1462,[2] the daughter of Adolf of Egmond and Catharine of Bourbon.[3] She was the twin of Charles, Duke of Guelders; they were born at Grave, Netherlands, and were their parents' only children. To strengthen the ties between the Kingdom of France and the Duchy of Lorraine, she was chosen as the bride of René II, Duke of Lorraine (1451–1508).[3] The marriage took place in Orléans on 1 September 1485.[4]

u Joanna of Bourbon (1442–1493, Brussels), married in Brussels in 1467 John II of Chalon, Prince of Orange

Other daughters of IV

u Margaret of Cleves (1416–1444) was a German noblewoman. She was the eldest daughter of Adolph I, Duke of Cleves and his second wife Marie of Burgundy. / Margaret (23 February 1416 – 20 May 1444), married first William III, Duke of Bavaria on 11 May 1433, second Ulrich V, Count of Württemberg on 29 January 1441

u Elisabeth of Cleves was the daughter of Adolph I, Duke of Cleves and Marie of Burgundy, Duchess of Cleves. She married Count Henry XXVI of Schwarzburg-Blankenburg, on July 15, 1434. [born October 1, 1420]

u Agnes of Cleves (1422–1448) was a daughter of Adolph I, Duke of Cleves and his second wife Mary of Valois, daughter of John the Fearless duke of Burgundy.[1]

In 1439, Agnes married Charles, Prince of Viana.

u Helen of Cleves (1423–1471); married on 12 February 1436 Henry "the Peaceful", Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (c. 1411–1473)

uj Margaret, Countess of Henneberg (1450–1509), married William III, Count of Henneberg

In 1469, he married Margaret (1451 – 13 February 1509), the daughter of Duke Henry the Peaceful of Brunswick-Lüneburg.[1]

u Marie of Cleves (19 September 1426 – 23 August 1487) was the third wife of Charles, Duke of Orléans. She was born a German princess, the last child of Adolph I, Duke of Cleves and his second wife, Mary of Burgundy.

At the age of fourteen, Marie was married to 46-year-old Charles of Valois, Duke of Orléans, a man 32 years her senior,[1] on 27 November 1440, in Saint-Omer.

uj Marie of Orléans (19 December/September 1457 – 1493) was the elder sister of King Louis XII of France. Due to her marriage to John of Foix,[1] she was Countess of Étampes and Viscountess of Narbonne. ... she married John of Foix on 8 September 1483.

uij Ursula Germaine of Foix[a](c. 1488 – 15 October 1536) was an early modern French noblewoman from the House of Foix. By marriage to King Ferdinand II of Aragon, she was Queen of Aragon, Majorca, Naples, Sardinia, Sicily, and Valencia and Princess of Catalonia from 1506 to 1516 and Queen of Navarre from 1512 to 1516.

Other married daughter of V

uj Margaret of Guelders (11 August 1436, Grave, North Brabant – 2 November 1486, Simmern) was a noblewoman from what is now the Netherlands.

In Lobith on 6 August 1454 she married Frederick I, Count Palatine of Simmern making her Countess of Palatinate-Simmern - they had ten children:

12 13 13 13 13 13 14 14 15 16 16 17 17 17 17
11 11 12 12 13 13 13 14 14 14 16 16 16 17 17
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15

17 18 18 18 18 19 20 20 21 22 22 23 23 25 25 32 33
17 17 17 17 18 18 18 18 20 21 21 21 22 23 25 25 33
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32

Minimum 11 or 12
Lower quartile 14 or between 14 and 15
Median 17 or between 17 and 18
Higher quartile 20 to 22
Maximum 33.

So, 1/4 of the marriages before the age of 15./HGL

PS, the lifespans were these:

20 24 26 28 28 29 29 31 35 36 37 39 44 44 45
19 24 24 25 27 28 28 30 34 36 37 39 28 40 43
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15

48 48 48 50 50 51 52 55 57 59 60 60 61 68 69 73 82
45 47 48 48 50 50 52 54 57 58 60 60 61 67 69 73 82
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32

Minimum 19 or 20
Lower Quartile between 30 and 34 or 31 and 35
Median between 45 and 47 or on 48
Higher Quartile between 57 and 58 or between 57 and 59
Maximum 82

Numeric Symbolism in Genesis 5 Patriarchs?

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Ussher III · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Numeric Symbolism in Genesis 5 Patriarchs? · HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS: Number Symbolism in Genesis 5? · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Ages or Names Symbolic?

In responding to T Michael Lutas, I make the observations, it's up to him to do a search for any possible symbolism in Genesis 5 ages.

Also, that modern numerology (going far beyond simple gematria) is a thing Jews developed well after splitting from Christianity, not a tradition that as it stands could be taken as a possible inspiration for Genesis 5. I decided to take a go anyway, just out of curiosity.

I make a search on duckduckgo with the key words "symbolism in Adam dying at 930 years" and I find exactly one hit, which is not Jewish, but which is made by one James or Jim Stump for BioLogos, who is on the search for excuses against taking Genesis 5 literally:

Long Life Spans in Genesis: Literal or Symbolic?
By Jim Stump on October 05, 2017
https://biologos.org/articles/long-life-spans-in-genesis-literal-or-symbolic

The supposed symbolic value is, you add up multiples of 60 years multiples of 7 years, and to make it work, you also use multiples of five years, since five years = 60 months. There are 30 numbers in Genesis five, for each of the ten patriarchs three, a) when he had the relevant son, b) how long he lived after that, c) the total.

There are two problems, even here, first:

We may never know for sure what significance the numbers had for the ancient Hebrews who wrote the text.

This is a very candid admission there is no Jewish traditional numerological interpretation of these ages.

Then, three of the numbers get their total from such things in a very roundabout way, explicitated for footnotes 2 to 4:

2. 912 = [(60+60+60 years) x 60 months] + 60 months + 7 years. That is, 180 years x 5 years (=900 years) + 12 years.
3. 782 = (60+60+60+60+60+60+60+60+60+60+60+60 years) + (60+60+60+60 months) + (7+7+7+7+7+7 years). That is, 720+20+42 years.
4. 963 = [(60+60+60 years) x 60 months] + (7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7 years).

The first and third of these are a no no, since it would involve squared years.

A third problem: this does not seem to go very well for Genesis 11 ages.
100 + 500 = 600
35 + 303 = 338 ...

A fourth problem, in his reasoning, the Sumerian King List has 8 pre-Flood kings, with reigns that simply multiply Genesis 5 ages (rounded to nearest 5 or 10) with 60, and also omit Adam and Noah, probably because Cain to Tubal-Cain are only 8, actually was pretended as being historical. Now, Jim Stump says:

Different versions of the Sumerian King List are found in several ancient documents, and these use outlandishly large figures for the number of years some kings supposedly reigned in various Mesopotamian city-states (e.g., in Eridug, Alulim ruled for 28,800 years!). The numbers there came to have a role in legitimizing certain dynasties, and no one thinks they are simply historical reports of true numerical values. So, since there are clear examples of numbers being used numerically and of numbers being used numerologically, when we see some numbers in literature from the ancient Near East (like in Genesis), we must consider in which way they were being used.

As a matter of fact, both I and CMI believe the Sumerian King list is a tampered historical report, with faked numeric values. Due to deifying pre-Flood patriarchs, or perhaps simply misreading positional arithmetic systems without place holders (some Mesopotamian ones had, some hadn't). Here is CMI:

The antediluvian patriarchs and the Sumerian King List
by Raúl Erlando López
First published in: Journal of Creation 12(3):347–357, 1998
https://creation.com/the-antediluvian-patriarchs-and-the-sumerian-king-list

Other blunder in the Sumerian king list is instead of patriarcal lives overlapping, they are interpreted as regnal years and serialised.

But the first problem for Stump is actually also a fifth one:

We may never know for sure what significance the numbers had for the ancient Hebrews who wrote the text.

I can live with the real divinely meant sense of a literal thing in the OT being a symbolic one. Here is a symbolism for some food laws of Moses:

1) The animal that chews the cud and has a divided hoof, is clean in signification. Because division of the hoof is a figure of the two Testaments: or of the Father and Son: or of the two natures in Christ: of the distinction of good and evil. While chewing the cud signifies meditation on the Scriptures and a sound understanding thereof; and whoever lacks either of these is spiritually unclean. 2) In like manner those fish that have scales and fins are clean in signification. Because fins signify the heavenly or contemplative life; while scales signify a life of trials, each of which is required for spiritual cleanness. 3) Of birds certain kinds were forbidden. In the eagle which flies at a great height, pride is forbidden: in the griffon which is hostile to horses and men, cruelty of powerful men is prohibited. The osprey, which feeds on very small birds, signifies those who oppress the poor. The kite, which is full of cunning, denotes those who are fraudulent in their dealings. The vulture, which follows an army, expecting to feed on the carcases of the slain, signifies those who like others to die or to fight among themselves that they may gain thereby. Birds of the raven kind signify those who are blackened by their lusts; or those who lack kindly feelings, for the raven did not return when once it had been let loose from the ark. The ostrich which, though a bird, cannot fly, and is always on the ground, signifies those who fight God's cause, and at the same time are taken up with worldly business. The owl, which sees clearly at night, but cannot see in the daytime, denotes those who are clever in temporal affairs, but dull in spiritual matters. The gull, which flies both in the air and swims in the water, signifies those who are partial both to Circumcision and to Baptism: or else it denotes those who would fly by contemplation, yet dwell in the waters of sensual delights. The hawk, which helps men to seize the prey, is a figure of those who assist the strong to prey on the poor. The screech-owl, which seeks its food by night but hides by day, signifies the lustful man who seeks to lie hidden in his deeds of darkness. ...

In other words, I need to divide the Testaments (completely, not squeezing them together like a camel's semi-cloven hoof), I need to meditate, I need to have a contemplative life and I need to have trials, I need to avoid certain vices, like pride, cruelty and so on.

If I do not need to keep the Kashroot, and indeed do not do so, I certainly don't need to disbelieve God's former command of them, since God made the ancient Israelites practise a live charade for certain spiritual principles.

But Jim Stump wants me to disbelieve the letter of Genesis 5 in favour of a symbolism that is unknown and therefore lost.

ὅτι οὐκ ἀδυνατήσει παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πᾶν ῥῆμα.

The usual translation in context is, "with God no word is impossible" "quia non erit impossibile apud Deum omne verbum." - but if we go to the Greek, now, my Greek has rusted since 1993, but it seems to be reasonable for Berean Study Bible to say "For no word from God will ever fail." Or For American Standard Version to say "For no word from God shall be void of power." - since "ἀδυνατήσει" seems to mean "become powerless" ... but that would be the case with Genesis 5 genealogies if Jim Stump were right.

Especially in context of instruction.

All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

Except Genesis 5, which neither teaches facts, being purely symbolic, in ages, nor teaches principles, since the ones meant are actually forgotten? I don't think so.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
13th Lord's Day after Pentecost
27.VIII.2023