Thursday, December 30, 2021

Swedes and Finns, Czechs and Hungarians

I saw a quora question, while the access to the site was blocked, I got the question and first line of the response in the mail.

Now, Czechs and Hungarians can't understand each other if they speak slowly. Czechs and Poles perhaps can, but Czechs and Hungarians can't. There is a reason why Czechs and Poles are counted as Slavs in linguistic and Hungarians as Fenno-Ugrians.

Similarily, Swedes and Finns can't understand each other if they speak slow, they often can understand each other if the Finn speaks Swedish, but that's a different question. Swedes and Danes and Norwegians have some ability to understand each other, all being Nordic languages and Finnish being Fenno-Ugrian.

Can Finns and Hungarians understand each other? No. While both are Fenno-Ugrian, it's like saying Czech and Swedish are both Indo-European. A Hungarian immigration heritage comrade in the military service and a comrade whose girlfriend (now wife, I hope - perhaps already wife?) was Finnish spent hours trying to search words resembling each other in Finnish and Hungarian, and they did find some, but that doesn't mean they can understand each other when they speak slowly.

Finns and Estonians can understand each other about as well as Swedes and Danes. I've been told. Finns and Lapps are more like Swedes and Germans. Finns and Hungarians, if I am not to use the parallel Swedes and Czechs, it's at least a bit like Lithuanians and Czechs or Gaels and Romanians (Balto-Slavic and Italo-Celtic seem more credible to me than Indo-European original unities).

How many languages have the word meaning bear that is "ursus" in Latin and "arktos" in Greek? I try Pokorny. I fail to find it, since Pokorny was before the "h2-" notation of certain PIE words (and PIE, Proto-Indo-European, has changed vastly since 1868, probably more than any other language, except possibly Dyirbal.

But wiktionary gives a help.

h₂ŕ̥tḱos leads to:

1) Albanian ar, newer ari, arushë
2) Hittite ḫar-tág-ga-aš
3) Armenian (both old and new) արջ (arǰ)
4) Lithuanian irštvà (“bear's den” and not "bear" which is lokys)
5) Welsh arth, Breton arzh, Old Irish art, now replaced by "bear"
6) Greek ἄρκτος
7) Sanskrit ṛ́kṣa, Classic Persian xirs with Avestan arṣ̌a, Kamkata-viri and Ashkun , Tregami voć
8) Finnish karhu, Estonian karu, with this Indo-European word as only one possibility of two.
9) Latin ursus. With urso, oso, ours, orso ... depending on daughter language.

I think this is the PIE word I have seen most spread between families after the numerals 2 to 10 + 100! All the IE families have 2 to 10 (Greek doesn't have the usual one for "one"), and by contrast, Germanic doesn't have this word for bear, that's a bit like "one" lacking in Greek (though one could say it's not completely lacking, since oιoς is "one" on a dice - but the cognate would be normally oιvoς and that means "wine").

Note, since "8 Finnish" is not IE, it's just 8 families overall, 1 to 7 + 9. I typically see 3 to 5 for a word, so far. This is one reason to maintain the possibility of rather areal features than a common proto-language.

Coming from the same region doesn't mean speaking the same language.

Speaking nearly the same language, it's not just about speaking slowly. I am a Swede, and lived next door to Denmark, and I consider my three stages with Danish were:

1) understanding short phrases ("mang' tak", "ti' kroner" ...)
2) understanding Danish in writing
3) trying to speak Danish and being heard as if speaking Swedish, and sometimes having to tell Danes to speak slower, sometimes being told so myself
4) getting usefully good at speaking Danish
5) relapsing from 4 to somewhere 2 or 3, since losing the contact.

And the better you understand each other, spontaneously or after learning the other language and seeing it already has cognates, the better suited you are to take loans from it as if they were cognates. I just saw "main page" of Danish wiki. It is "forside" in Danish. I would borrow this as "försida" if "hufvudsida" (what it means in internet terms) and "framsida" (what it means in other terms) didn't already exist. Between "nedlåtande" and "nedladende" one may have been borrowed from the other, I don't think any is arguing it was there in Old Norse - a historic language which is parent to Danish, Swedish, Norse, Icelandic and fairly close to modern Icelandic. Proto-Indo-European is a reconstructed language supposed to be parent to Germanic*, Latin, Greek, Avestic and Sanscrit as well as Old Irish.**

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Sabinus and Companions***

Spoleti item natalis sanctorum Martyrum Sabini, Assisiensis Episcopi, atque Exsuperantii et Marcelli Diaconorum, ac Venustiani Praesidis cum uxore et filiis, sub Maximiano Imperatore. Ex ipsis Marcellus et Exsuperantius, primum equuleo suspensi, deinde fustibus graviter mactati, postremnm, abrasi ungulis et laterum exustione assati, martyrium compleverunt; Venustianus autem non multo post, simul cum uxore et filiis, est gladio necatus; sanctus vero Sabinus, post detruncationem manuum et diutinam carceris macerationem, ad mortem usque caesus est. Horum martyrium, licet diverso exstiterit tempore, una tamen die recolitur.

* Germanic itself supposed and probable parent to Gothic, Anglo-Saxon, Old Saxon, Old High German and Old Norse. ** And a few more. *** One of them arguably patron saint of the family of a well beloved French children's book writer : Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.

Thursday, December 23, 2021

A Welsh Coal Mine and Three Parisian Priests

In the 19th C. there were a lot of philosophers around in Europe. Herbert and Charles in England, Arthur and Friedrich in Germany and a few more. How did they behave? They disagreed with each other, and they tried to state their disagreements very pointedly and perhaps I'm myself an heir to their pointedness at times. But this did not stop the disciples of each to make rhetorical interpreations of their masters, taking their actual words as understatements and psychologically examining what they would have thought if considering this further thing.

If they had lived 300 years earlier, they would have used the Bible for disagreement. They were back then named Martin, Huldrich, Martin, Thomas, John, John and John. Thanks to them, some people who grew up in the area where their disagreements prevailed came to conclude the Bible has no intelligible content, since there are thousands of irreconcilable ways of interpreting it, and each goes about with great attention and has no notion he's contradicting it.

Now, back to the 19th C. Everyone knows, it went on to World War I. And in a novel by Ken Follett, 1914, a few months before Sarajevo shooting, there is an explosion and a fire in a mine in Wales. There is a type of trees and ferns from before the Flood, they were covered by lots of sediment during it 4978 years ago, and the remains of them are labelled Cambrian, because they make so much coal in Wales, and Cambria is Latin for Cymru, which is Welsh for Wales. Now, the coals are not alone, tidy, in the coal mines, there is methane, there is coal dust, and when something goes wrong in a coal mine it can go very wrong.

It can go so wrong, and it is so unpleasant even when all goes right, that free and innocent citizens earlier on were not supposed to do the work, it was reserved for slaves or offenders condemned to slavery.

In Ken Follett's novel, five men die, fifty men are grieveously injored. And King George V hearing of it goes to visit the families who lost a miner. One Ethel Williams, arguably his fiction, had suggested it to the king. And she looks on and says "I never thought I'd see a King knock on a miner's door."

Well - there was another King who did that before George V. Not the least one. He could consider Jupiter or Sirius as small pebbles. He came down to the hut of miners condemned to slavery. Indeed, he went down into the mine too. We celebrate this for the 2021st anniversary in two days, if the world still stands. Before He went back up, He had not just given five gold sovereigns to grieving, He had given five wounds to save miners from the fire. And before He left, He had left us with twelve good and true men, and told them to keep to His teaching.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Bishop Stephen II Tempier of the the Diocese of Paris (it became an archdiocese centuries later) and Duns Scotus were among the heirs of the twelve. Each had made a sacrifice to pefectly serve the One King and to get the attention they didn't spend on worshipping Him on what the miners needed to be safe.

It is inconceivable that they quarrelled like 19th C. philosophers, about as inconceivable as that they should have behaved like the Coal company that negelcted the safety in the 1914 mine explosion, which I think Ken Follett did not make up.

So, while St. Thomas and bishop Tempier disagreed on how and why angels are different persons rather than one, and Scotus agreed with the bishop after he had spoken, they did certainly not make the kind of war on each other that Reformers, 19th C. philosophers, 19th and 20th CC. nationalists would do later on.

St. Thomas spoke up and said, since angels are incorporeal, they differ by being different as ideas, they have different species. It could not be otherwise, and he gave as a parallel, while white objects of matter can be different from each other because of the matter (and for that matter they can so by other qualities than whiteness), the whiteness itself if just one. I think some fashion designers would have rushed to correct him on that one very quickly, if Paris had already had its haute coûture. "Ah no, crêpe de Chine and cray white and snow white are very different!" they would say.

Bishop Tempier was concerned that this idea of incorporeal creatures needing different species of ideas to be different might be considered as a limit on the Omnipotence of God (which St. Thomas was certainly not trying to limit!) and so condemned the idea that God couldn't create different angels unless by making them different species. In addition, he might have been concerned also not to contradict City of God, where St. Ausgustine says that angels and demons were created the same kind. For Thomas, one could say, St. Augustine mainly wanted to deny angels and demons being exactly two kinds, different by moral alignment. For Tempier's conviction, and Scotus' statement, one could say that St. Augustine had in fact said "one kind".

Whatever is to be said for either part, there is nothing to be said for the idea that Bishop Tempier acted with St. Thomas as van Helsing with Dracula, waiting till he had gone to bed and then using a stake through his heart. Very much on the contrary. He carefully walked up to St. Thomas mortal (or written) remains, measured their exact position, and considered that St. Thomas, both by corpulence and by already-having-diedness was not likely to move one inch further up to Doomsday. Then he measured the exact distance of one inch more as outside the fence. Putting St. Thomas safely inside it for eternity. And then a few years later a young Father John (a Franciscan, not a Dominican) set himself very safely in the exact middle of Bishop Tempier's fence and stated God is making angels different by giving them a different thisness. The fence is still there. The 219 condemnations were never retracted. 48 years later, Bishop Stephen III Bourret stated sth like "if Thomas Aquinas wrote something which happened to fall under the condemnation of my predecessor, this ban is now lifted as to the works and sentences of Thomas Aquinas" and after that Pope John XXII canonised him, not just for perfect apostolicity of his doctrine, but also for a life in innocence and for miracles worked after he died. Things God worked on his behalf, like the handkerchiefs touching St. Paul's clothes, or the touch of the Holy Prophet Elisaeus' corpse.

Hans Georg Lundahl
two days before Christmas

Tuesday, December 21, 2021

Byzantine Emperors from Constantine to Alexios V Doukas : Lifespans

Constantine I 65 Constantine II 24 Constantius II 44 Julian the Apostate 31/32 Jovian 33 Valentinian I 54 Valens 49 Theodosius I 48

Arcadius 31 Theodosius II 49 Marcian 65 Leo I 73 Leo II 7 Zeno 65 (both before and after the next one) Basiliscus ? Anastasius I Dicorus 87 Justin I 77 Justinian I 83 Justin II ?

Tiberius II Constantine 62 Maurice 63 Phocas 62/63 Heraclius 65 Heraclius Constantine III 29 Heraklonas 15/16 Constans II 37 Constantine IV 35 Justinian II 42 Tiberius III ? Philippikos Bardanes ? Anastasios II ? Theodosius III ? Leo III the Isaurian 55/56 Constantine V 57 Leo IV the Khazar 30 Constantine VI 33 Irene of Athens 51

Nikephoros I 60/61 Staurakios 18/20 Michael I Rangabe 73 Leo V the Armenian 45 Michael II 59 Theophilos 30 Michael III 27 Basil I 75 Leo VI the Wise 45 Alexander Porphyrogenitus 42 Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus 54 Romanos II Porphyrogenitus 27 Nikephoros II Phokas 57 John I Tzimiskes 50 Basil II Porphyrogenitus Boulgaroktonos 65/66

Constantine VIII Porphyrogenitus 67/68 Romanos III Argyros 65/66 Michael IV the Paphlagonian 30/31 Michael V Kalaphates 26/27 Zoë Porphyrogenita 72 Theodora Porphyrogenita 75/76 Constantine IX Monomachos 50/55 Michael VI Bringas ?

Isaac I Komnenos 53 Constantine X Doukas 61 Romanos IV Diogenes 42 Michael VII Doukas 40 Nikephoros III Botaneiates 78/79 Alexios I Komnenos 61/62 John II Komnenos 55 Manuel I Komnenos 61 Alexios II Komnenos 13/14 (On 2 March 1180, at the age of eleven, he was married to Agnes of France aged 10, daughter of King Louis VII of France. She was thereafter known as Anna,[3]: 64  and after Alexios' murder three years later, Anna would be remarried to the person responsible, Andronikos, then aged 65.) Andronikos I Komnenos 66/67 Isaac II Angelos 47 Alexios III Angelos 58 Alexios IV Angelos 21 Alexios V Doukas 63/64.


14 16 20 21 24 27 27 27 29 30 30 31 31 32 33 33 35 37 40 42 42 42 44 45 45 47 48 49 49 50 51 53 54
13 15 18 21 24 26 27 27 29 30 30 30 31 31 33 33 35 37 40 42 42 42 44 45 45 47 48 49 49 50 50 51 53
02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34

54 55 55 56 57 57 58 59 61 61 61 62 62 63 63 64 65 65 65 65 66 66 67 68 72 73 73 75 76 77 79 83 87
54 54 55 55 57 57 58 59 60 61 61 61 62 62 63 63 65 65 65 65 65 65 66 67 72 73 73 75 75 77 78 83 87
35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67

34 - 50 - 51 - 67
33 - 33 - 33 - 33
01 - 17 - 18 - 34

Very comparable to "Frankish"* royalties : the median (34th value from 67) is 54 or 53 according to low or high counts, and the higher quartile 63 or 64 to 65 years is like non-royals./HGL

* Louis XVI of France, former West Francia, Marie Antoinette from Austria, former part of East Francia, and from Lotharingia, former Mid Francia.

Wednesday, December 15, 2021

The kind of thing that happens in historiography

Quoting from wikipedian article Primary Chronicle

The historical period covered in the Tale of Bygone Years begins with biblical times, in the introductory portion of the text, and concludes with the year 1117 in the Chronicle's third edition. Russian philologist and founder of the science of textology, Aleksey Shakhmatov, was the first one to discover early on that the chronology of the Primary Chronicle opens with an error. The Chronicle has it that “In the year 6360 (852), the fifteenth of the indiction, at the accession of the Emperor Michael, the land of Rus’ was first named.”[5]: 58  However, 11th century Greek historian John Skylitzes' accounts of the Byzantine history show that Emperor Michael III did not begin his reign in 852 but rather a decade earlier, on January 20, 842.[6] Because of the work's several identified chronological issues and numerous logical incongruities that have been pointed out by historians over the years, the Chronicle's value as a reliable historical source has been placed under strict scrutiny by the contemporary experts in the field (see “§ Assessment and critique”).

So, at a key point, it is ten years off, unless it is Skylitzes who is ten years off.

It says other "chronological issues" and "numerous logical incongruities" and in the section mentioned we get things left out because they didn't fit and invented even if not there.

It can be mentioned that the Novgorod First Chronicle is considered as a corrective.

A N D it may be mentioned that the study leading to these assessments were started by one Aleksey Shakhmatov who was a Czarist and therefore a Great Russian nationalist at some level./HGL

PS - other example. We know the Church Historian and Hymnographer died in Mytilene one 4th of Huly - but was it 712 or 726 or 740? Wiki gives all three alternatives!/HGL

Sunday, December 5, 2021

The Restrainer : the Roman Emperor

This may seem counterintuitive. Isn't the Restrainer the Holy Spirit? Or the Church?

Isn't Rome the Fourth Beast of Daniel?

The restrainer is "taken out of the way" at a certain moment, and that's close to the end times, isn't 476 or even 1453 too early?

Now let's answer these in turn.

The Holy Spirit is always present in the Church, in the lives of the faithful. The Church is present until the end of time. In Matthew 28:20 Our Lord said "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." But the world is not consumed seven or 3 and a half years before Doomsday, therefore the Church is always present. The unbelieving Jews (who are such for the moment) and who come to faith, will be parts of the Church, not of a separate end times covenant. And as the Church is always present, so is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not the restrainer, since the restrainer is taken out of the way and the Holy Spirit isn't.

Senatorial Rome was the fourth beast, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes came as a vassal of the fourth beast. Yes, he had been hostage to Rome, and bowed down before the Roman Senate. The third beast, Greece, had come in the time of Alexander. This means, Caesar restraining the haughtiness and selfishness of the Senatorial nobility became a restrainer of the fourth beast. Even more so Constantine, since the first Roman persecution of Christians had been according to Senatusconsultum de Baccanalibus and since Constantine put an end to persecutions, at least relatively speaking.

In 476, only Western Caesars were taken out of the way, and in 1453, only the Eastern ones, after 476 there had been a new continuity of Western ones since 800, and 1453 was also followed by a new continuity of Eastern ones:

In 1547, Ivan IV assumed the title of “Tsar and Grand Duke of all Rus'” (Царь и Великий князь всея Руси, Tsar i Velikiy knyaz vseya Rusi) and was crowned on 16 January,[19] thereby turning the Grand Duchy of Moscow into Tsardom of Russia, or "the Great Russian Tsardom", as it was called in the coronation document,[20] by Constantinople Patriarch Jeremiah II[21][22] and in numerous official texts,[23][24][25][26][27][28] but the state partly remained referred to as Moscovia (English: Muscovy) throughout Europe, predominantly in its Catholic part, though this Latin term was never used in Russia.[29]

I'm not going to bother about all the footnotes of this welldocumented wiki. The most interesting ones are 20 to 22, since they speak about a coronation document signed or commented on by Constantinople Patriarch Jeremiah II.

20 Чин венчания на царство Ивана IV Васильевича. Российский государственный архив древних актов. Ф. 135. Древлехранилище. Отд. IV. Рубр. I. № 1. Л. 1-46
21 Lee Trepanier. Political Symbols in Russian History: Church, State, and the Quest for Order and Justice. Lexington Books, 2010. P. 61: "so your great Russian Tsardom, more pious than all previous kingdoms, is the Third Rome"
Barbara Jelavich. Russia's Balkan Entanglements, 1806-1914. Cambridge University Press, 2004. P. 37. Note 34: "Since the first Rome fell through the Appollinarian heresy and the second Rome, which is Constantinople, is held by the infidel Turks, so then thy great Russian Tsardom, pious Tsar, which is more pious than previous kingdoms, is the third Rome"

Obviously, I do not consider First Rome fell by Apollinarian heresy but the point to be taken is, Christians with more affection for Constantinople than for Rome have accepted Moscow as Third Rome. This means, after 1547, there were two representatives of Rome, of Caesarian Rome, of the restrainer, in the World, in Vienna and in Moscow, and they were only taken out of the way much more recently than that, when "contemporary history begins" - within five years from Gavril Princip shooting archduke Francis Ferdinand of Austria, both Charles I of Austria and Nicolas II of Russia were taken out of the way.

Some have considered the nec plus ultra of lawlessness as pogroms against Jews. Now, German pogroms have been either within one area, of which both Strassburg and Zurich had ceased to be under Habsburgs prior to 1914, or within two or three periods of upheaval. That the First Crusade involved a People's Crusade that did plunder Jews (whereon Peter the Hermit, who had preached the Crusade, left it) is certain, but whether they went as far as killing isn't. The two other periods would be Rex Rintfleisch, 20th April to 19th October, in the year 1298 also featuring a fight between two Ceasars, between Adolf of Nassau, deposed by the Princes Electors, and Albert I of Habsburg, defeating him, protecting Jews, and then after another Habsburg had been defeated and an Adolf had replaced him (without any Imperial crown), after that non-Caesar Adolf had come to Vienna in 1938.

In Russia there were pogroms in the civil war following the Communist Revolution, and the Czarist forces were not the most prominent culprits. I read in Rivarol, 24th November, that the responsibilities were : 40 % Ukrainean Nationalist, 17 % Russian Whites or Czarists (the leaders tried to restrain this) and 9 % Red Army. 40+17+9 = 66, so 34 % were by either unknown or none of these armies, if the percentages are correct. The pogrom on 400 Jewish families in Odessa (January 1918) seems to have been Communist, Red Army or Communist Civilians, since some have argued they were targetted for their riches and not for being Jewish. That motivation and getting some kind of good press from Commies, suggests the perpetrators in that case were Commies. I have not asked Sylvain Rousillon for details, so far.

But we need not be in two minds that lawlessness has increased manyfold since the end of World War I. If Caesarian Rome lasted to then, the restrainer could well have been taken out of the way after Austria and Russia ceased fighting in that war.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Second Lord's Day of Advent

"The Restrainer" is in Douay Rheims "he who now holdeth" in II Thessalonians 2:6, 7

[6] And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.

Tuesday, November 23, 2021

Est-ce que des langues sont parfois construites avec délibération?

Je vais évoquer Nibelungen, le poëme en moyen haut allemand. Et je vais évoquer d'abord Nancy Drew (je viens de lire le 3, The Bungalow Mystery).

Comme vous savez, dans un polar, les accusations de kidnapping ne viennent que très tard, en général, et mon Nancy Drew ne fait pas figure d'exception. Alors, je trouve "you kidnaped" au lieu de "you kidnapped" - c'est de l'américain, non pas d'anglais brittannique. Évidemment, il y a des différences. Les verbes en -iser en français, en britannique, ils évoquent leur origine immédiat français et finissent sur -ise et en américain, ils évoquent plutôt leur origine lointain, le grec, et s'écrivent -ize en mémoire des verbes en -ιζω. Et j'ai vu capsize assez tôt. Mais je pense que le mot peut s'écrire avec un z en britannique aussi. Donc, je n'ai pas réagi. Les peu de verbes qui doublent la consonne finale en deuxième syllabe avant la désinance -ed je n'ai pas vu le non-doublage avant kidnapped (pardon, selon l'orthographe deCarolyn Keene kidnaped) - pour les verbes monosyllabes, genre jag, les deux utilisent consonne doublée, comme jagged. Mais le plus grand évocateur des deux variantes de l'anglais ... ah, la couleur!

Anglais britannique (et du Commonwealth et d'Irlande) écrit "colour, labour, favour" et l'américain écrit "color, labor, favor". J'ai tôt vu "horror" mais la forme "horrour" ne semble plus exister en britannique. C'est possible que j'ai vu un "do me a favor" plutôt qu'un "do me a favour" assez tôt aussi, mais la phrase est banale, on glisse dessus vers la suite.* Les mots évoqués sont assez faciles (sauf cette phrase) à éviter, et si Carolyn Keene évite le mot colour ce n'est pas parce que le concept de couleurs ne l'intéresse pas, c'est qu'elle dit plutôt directement laquelle des couleurs et si possible la teinte exacte, comme aquamarin. Elle semble donc avoir fait un certain effort d'éviter de polariser le lectorat entre Anglais et Américains ou déjà entre Canadiens et Américains. Jusqu'au mot kidnaped j'avais l'impression, même si l'action se déroulait aux États-Unis, de lire de l'anglais britannique. Mais un Américain ou un étranger ayant appris la forme américaine à l'école, il aurait eu l'impression - d'ailleurs correcte - de lire de l'américain.

En écoutant, ça aurait été une autre histoire. Mais je n'ai pas les Nancy Drew que je lis ou que j'avais lus en bande sonore, je les ai en livres (ou j'en ai ce deuxième en livre, l'autre a déjà été donné à qqn d'autre).

Et très évidemment, les divers lecteurs de l'épopée Der Nibelunge Nôt n'ont pas eu un enrégistrement du poëte d'origine, mais ils ont eu un texte écrit. Notons, probablement le public écoutait à des fêtes, mais à chaque fête il y avait le poëte et récitateur qui lisait à haute voix, à partir de son livre manuscrit. Le poëme est en rimes. Je vais citer la première strophe, avec les rimes internes en cursive et les rimes finales en gras :

Uns ist in alten mæren wunders vil geseit
von helden lobebæren, von grôzer arebeit,
von freuden, hôchgezîten, von weinen und von klagen,
von küener recken strîten muget ir nû wunder hœren sagen.

Alors, je n'ai pas vécu aux temps des Croisades en Allemagne. Mais j'ai lu la théorie, assez plausible, que cette langue là était une norme suprarégionale entre deux régions de dialectes : les alémanniques, les bavarisants (y comris d'Autriche). Et que, pour les rimes, on évitait de rimer deux mots en un des dialectes qui n'auraient pas rimé dans l'autre. Il y a donc quatre pairs de mots dans la strophe qu'on évoque où les deux mots riment en dialectes bavariens et en dialectes alémanniques. Bien entendu, le XIIe siècle ou le XIIIe ou juste entre les deux.

Imaginons que tel poëte évite de rimer "anyhow" et "cow" parce que si la plupart des endroits, les deux finissent en aou, au Canada, anyhow finit en ou. Il évite aussi de rimer "anyhow" avec "who" parce que, si au Canada les deux finissent en ou, la plupart des endroits, "anyhow" finit en aou.

C'est à peu près la démarche du poëte des Nibelungs, mais un peu plus difficile. Car, le poëte anglophone qui évite de mettre "anyhow" dans les rimes, il a au moins une orthographe anglaise déjà fixée et acceptée (avec certaines variations mineurs, voir plus haut) dans tout le monde anglophone. Pourquoi ne serait-ce pas possible pour notre poëte? Il aurait pu prendre l'allemand de Goethe ... s'il avait eu une machine de remonter le temps et la même observation vaut pour celle de la Bible de Luther.

L'allemand de son époque, par contre, se divisait entre divers chanceries - un peu comme quand un document écrit à Paris en "français" (le dialecte de l'Île de France) va être à Beauvais copié et transscrit en picard. Le poëte a donc dû connaître et les versions allémanniques et les versions bavaroises des divers concepts lexicaux. Et la différence sonore.

Un tel effort va pouvoir influencer la langue. Imaginons que le poëte aurait en tête un rime qui fonctionne parfaitement en bavarois, mais il se rend compte que le même mot en allémannique a une voyelle plus ouverte que l'autre mot déjà posé. Il va donc chercher un autre rime, peut-être un mot purement bavarois, mais, si le mot se prononce en allémannique, le rime va fonctionner tout aussi bien. Et le récitateur en St. Gall (endroit certes allémannique, comme toute la Suisse allemande) va importer ce mot dans le vocabulaire allémannique. Les versions courtoises des deux dialectes vont donc s'approcher. Et on est quelque peu plus proche à ce qui n'existait pas encore, un allemand unifié. En fait, toutes les fois que les langues modernes se parlent en plus qu'une région, la version standardisée est le produit d'une forme de compromis entre dialectes ou prévalence d'un dialecte sur les autres, prévalence qui va être moins poussée du fait que les écrivains des autres dialectes ne vont pas être légalement exclus d'écrire dans le dialecte "du pays entier". Le français a emprunté "ça" et la négation "pas" à la Provence.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Pape St. Clément I

Natalis sancti Clementis Primi, Papae et Martyris, qui, tertius post beatum Petrum Apostolum, Pontificatum tenuit, et, in persecutione Trajani, apud Chersonesum relegatus, ibi, alligata ad ejus collum anchora, praecipitatus in mare, martyrio coronatur. Ipsius autem corpus, Hadriano Secundo Summo Pontifice, a sanctis Cyrillo et Methodio fratribus Romam translatum, in Ecclesia quae ejus nomine antea fuerat exstructa, honorifice reconditum est.

* Il se pourrait que je pensais à "I may need your help" page 9, également une personne très centrale ne reçoit pas quelques pages plus tard "a favor" ou "a favour" selon les versions, mais "a helping hand." Continué : en fait, page 24 il y a "multicolored" plutôt que "multicoloured."

Monday, November 22, 2021

A Generation or Two More Back

I'm starting off from the generation marked as "Arrière-arrière-grand-parents" on this post, in French:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Mariées (et mariés) à quel âge, premières noces?

Unlike that post, this one will only deal with the marriage that's ancestral to the lines leading up to Marie-Antoinette. Like Jeanne d'Albret's marriage to Antoine de Navarre. Not always the first one.

To honour Americans of part German heritage, I will be quoting fairly much from German wikipedia. However, it is also practical, since some articles aren't available on the English or French ones. From here on to when I say stop, I will be quoting wiki, with very little own comment, mainly the ancestral numbers in relation to Marie-Antoinette and the comment "he was 25, she was 17" (as per the first of the couples here dealt with). Also noting when a certain ancestral number or sequence of them is double of other one : 48, 49 = 36, 37 ... mother's (3) father's (6) father's (12) father's (24) father and mother (48 and 49) are the same as father's (2) father's (4) mother's (9) father's (18) father and mother (36 and 37).

32, 33 - Franz II. von Lothringen (* 27. Februar 1572 in Nancy; † 14. Oktober 1632) war Graf von Vaudémont sowie für fünf Tage Herzog von Lothringen und Bar. / Christine Katharina Gräfin von Salm (* Mai 1575; † 31. Dezember 1627) war durch Heirat mit Franz von Lothringen seit 1597 eine Gräfin von Vaudémont sowie im November 1625 für fünf Tage Herzogin von Lothringen und Bar. Als Urgroßmutter des römisch-deutschen Kaisers Franz I. Stephan ist sie Ahnfrau des Kaiserhauses Habsburg-Lothringen. "Am 12. März 1597 heiratete sie in Nancy Franz," - he was 25, she was 17.
34, 35 - Heinrich II. der Gute (* 8. November 1563 in Nancy; † 31. Juli 1624 ebenda) war Markgraf von Pont-à-Mousson, dann Herzog von Lothringen und Bar von 1608 bis 1624. / Margarita Gonzaga (* 2. Oktober 1591 in Mantua; † 7. Februar 1632 in Nancy) war eine italienische Prinzessin von Mantua aus dem Haus Gonzaga. "Am 26. April 1606 wurde Margarita in Nancy mit Heinrich II., Herzog von Lothringen und Bar, verheiratet," - he was 43, she was 14
36, 37 - Ferdinand II. (* 9. Juli 1578 in Graz; † 15. Februar 1637 in Wien) war von 1619 bis zu seinem Tode Kaiser des Heiligen Römischen Reiches. / Maria Anna von Bayern (* 18. Dezember 1574 in München; † 8. März 1616 in Graz) war Prinzessin von Bayern und durch Heirat Erzherzogin von Österreich. "Am 23. April 1600 heiratete Maria Anna in der Grazer Hofkirche ihren Vetter," - he was 21, she was 25.
38, 39 Carlo II. Gonzaga (* 1609; † 30. August 1631 in Cavriana) war der zweitälteste Sohn des Herzogs Carlo I. Gonzaga von Nevers und Rethel. / Maria Gonzaga (* 29. Juli 1609 in Mantua; † 14. August 1660 in Porto Mantovano) war eine italienische Prinzessin aus dem Haus der Gonzaga, die als Herzöge Mantua (in der Region Lombardei) und Montferrat (in der Region Piemont) regierten. "m. 1627" - He was 18, she was 18 (or they could have been both 17)

40, 41 Henry IV (French: Henri IV; 13 December 1553 – 14 May 1610), also known by the epithet Good King Henry or Henry the Great, was King of Navarre (as Henry III) from 1572 and King of France from 1589 to 1610 / Marie de' Medici (French: Marie de Médicis, Italian: Maria de' Medici; 26 April 1575 – 3 July 1642), was Queen of France as the second wife of King Henry IV of France, of the House of Bourbon and Regent of the Kingdom of France officially during 1610–1614 and de facto until 1617. m. 1600 9.XII - He was 46, she was 25.
42, 43 Philip III (Spanish: Felipe; 14 April 1578 – 31 March 1621) was King of Spain. He was also, as Philip II, King of Portugal, Naples, Sicily and Sardinia and Duke of Milan from 1598 until his death in 1621. / Margaret of Austria (25 December 1584 – 3 October 1611) was Queen of Spain and Portugal by her marriage to King Philip III & II. "Margaret married Philip III of Spain, her first-cousin, once-removed, on 18 April 1599." He was 21, she was 14.
44, 45 Frederick V (German: Friedrich, Czech: Fridrich; 26 August 1596 – 29 November 1632)[1][2] was the Elector Palatine of the Rhine in the Holy Roman Empire from 1610 to 1623, and reigned as King of Bohemia from 1619 to 1620. He was forced to abdicate both roles, and the brevity of his reign in Bohemia earned him the derisive sobriquet "the Winter King" (Czech: Zimní král; German: Winterkönig). / Elizabeth Stuart (19 August 1596 – 13 February 1662) was Electress of the Palatinate and briefly Queen of Bohemia as the wife of Frederick V of the Palatinate. Because her husband's reign in Bohemia lasted for just one winter, Elizabeth is often referred to as the "Winter Queen". ... The wedding took place on 14 February 1613 at the royal chapel at the Palace of Whitehall and was a grand occasion that saw more royalty than ever visit the court of England. - He was 16, she was 16.
46, 47 Wilhelm V. von Hessen-Kassel, genannt der Beständige, (* 14. Februar 1602 in Kassel; † 21. September 1637 in Leer, Ostfriesland) aus dem Haus Hessen, Sohn des Landgrafen Moritz von Hessen-Kassel, war von 1627 bis 1637 Landgraf von Hessen-Kassel. / Amalie Elisabeth von Hanau-Münzenberg (* 29. Januar 1602 in Hanau; † 8. August 1651 in Kassel) regierte nach dem Tod ihres Gemahls, Landgraf Wilhelm V. von Hessen-Kassel, die Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel für den noch unmündigen Erben von 1637 bis 1650. ... Amalie Elisabeth heiratete 1619 den späteren Landgrafen Wilhelm (V.) von Hessen-Kassel. They were presumably both 17, since born early.

48, 49 = 36, 37
50, 51 = 42, 43

52, 53 Wolfgang Wilhelm von Pfalz-Neuburg (* 4. November 1578 in Neuburg an der Donau; † 20. März 1653 in Düsseldorf) war ein deutscher Reichsfürst aus dem Hause Wittelsbach. / Magdalene von Bayern (* 4. Juli 1587 in München; † 25. September 1628 in Neuburg an der Donau) war eine Prinzessin von Bayern und durch Heirat Pfalzgräfin von Neuburg und Herzogin von Jülich-Berg. ... Sie heiratete am 11. November 1613 in München den pfälzischen Erbprinzen Wolfgang Wilhelm von Neuburg (1578–1653) (after refusing another guy, whom she would have been married to, in alleging rather to get to a monastery). He was 35, she was 26.
54, 55 Georg II. von Hessen-Darmstadt (* 17. März 1605 in Darmstadt; † 11. Juni 1661 ebenda) war von 1626 bis zu seinem Tod Landgraf von Hessen-Darmstadt. / Prinzessin Sophie Eleonore von Sachsen (* 23. November 1609 in Dresden; † 2. Juni 1671 Darmstadt) aus der albertinischen Linie des Hauses Wettin war durch Heirat Landgräfin von Hessen-Darmstadt. ... Ihre Vermählung mitten im Dreißigjährigen Krieg am 1. April 1627 auf Schloss Hartenfels in Torgau mit dem Landgrafen Georg II. von Hessen-Darmstadt (1605–1661), wurde trotz der schwierigen Zeiten, als politisch-dynastisches Ereignis aufwändig gefeiert. Anlässlich der Hochzeit wurde die erste deutsche Oper „Tragicomoedia von der Dafne“ von Heinrich Schütz uraufgeführt.[1] Dadurch setzte sich in Europa der Brauch durch, Festlichkeiten in Fürstenkreisen musikalisch zu bereichern. He was 22, she was 17.

56, 57; August der Jüngere (* 10. April 1579 in Dannenberg, Fürstentum Lüneburg; † 17. September 1666 in Wolfenbüttel) Herzog zu Braunschweig-Lüneburg, Fürst von Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel, regierte von 1635 bis zu seinem Tode 1666 und galt als einer der gelehrtesten Fürsten seiner Zeit. / Dorothea von Anhalt-Zerbst (* 25. September 1607 in Zerbst; † 26. September 1634 in Hitzacker) aus der Dynastie der Askanier war eine Prinzessin von Anhalt-Zerbst und durch Heirat Herzogin zu Braunschweig und Lüneburg und Fürstin von Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel. ... Am 26. Oktober 1623 wurde sie in Zerbst die zweite Ehefrau des Herzogs August den Jüngeren von Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel (1579–1666). - He was 44, she was 16.
58, 59; Friedrich von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Norburg (* 26. November 1581 in Sønderborg; † 22. Juli 1658 in Nordborg (Norburg)) war Herzog von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Norburg. / Nach dem Tode seiner ersten Frau heiratete Friedrich am 5. Februar 1632 Eleonore von Anhalt-Zerbst (* 10. November 1608 in Zerbst; † 2. November 1680 in Osterholm), Tochter von Rudolf von Anhalt-Zerbst. - He was 51, she was 24.
60, 61; Joachim Ernst zu Oettingen-Oettingen (1612–1659) / Anna Dorothea von Hohenlohe (1621–1643) ... Le 5 décembre 1638 elle se marie à Neuenstein avec Joachim-Ernest d'Oettingen-Oettingen. - He was 26, she was 17.
62, 63; Eberhard III. (* 16. Dezember 1614 in Stuttgart; † 2. Juli 1674 ebenda) war von 1628 bis 1674 der achte (seit 1633 regierende) Herzog von Württemberg. / Anna Katharina Dorothea von Salm-Kyrburg (* 27. Januar 1614 in Finstingen; † 27. Juni 1655 in Stuttgart) wurde durch die Heirat mit Herzog Eberhard III. von Württemberg (1614–1674) Herzogin von Württemberg. ... Nach der Niederlage der Protestanten in der Schlacht bei Nördlingen vom 6. September 1634 wurde Württemberg geplündert und gebrandschatzt. Herzog Eberhard floh mit seinem Hofstaat ins Exil nach Straßburg. Dort lernte er Anna Katharina kennen und heiratete sie am 26. Februar 1637 ... - He was 22, she was 23.

64, 65 Karl III. von Lothringen (auch der Große genannt) (* 18. Februar 1543 in Nancy; † 14. Mai 1608 in Nancy) war Herzog von Lothringen und Mercœur. / Dort heiratete er am 22. Januar 1559 Claudia von Valois, (* 12. November 1547 im Schloss Fontainebleau; † 21. Februar 1575 in Nancy) war Prinzessin von Frankreich und Herzogin von Lothringen. - he was 15, she was 11.
66, 67 Paul of Salm-Brandenburg / Marie Le Veneur de Tillières "Christine von Salm wurde als einzige Tochter des Grafen Paul von Salm-Badenweiler (um 1535–1584) und dessen Gattin Maria Le Veneur de Tillières (1553–1600) in die obersalmische Linie des damals noch gräflichen Hauses Salm geboren." - at birth of sole daughter, he was 40, she was 22.
68, 69 Vincenzo I. Gonzaga (* 21. September 1562 in Mantua; † 9. Februar 1612 ebenda[1]) war der Sohn des Herzogs Guglielmo Gonzaga und Eleonores von Österreich. / Eleonora de’ Medici (Eleonora Maria di Francesco de’ Medici; * 28. Februar 1567 in Florenz; † 9. September 1611 in Cavriana) war eine Tochter von Francesco I., Großherzog der Toskana, und der Erzherzogin Johanna von Österreich. "Am 29. April 1584 heiratete Eleonora als dessen zweite Gemahlin Vincenzo I. Gonzaga" - he was 21, she was 17.

70, 71 = 64, 65

72, 73 Karl II. Franz von Innerösterreich (* 3. Juni 1540 in Wien; † 10. Juli 1590 in Graz) war von 1564 bis zu seinem Tod Erzherzog von Österreich und regierte in Innerösterreich. / Maria Anna von Bayern (* 21. März 1551 in München; † 29. April 1608 in Graz) war durch Geburt Prinzessin von Bayern und durch Heirat Erzherzogin von Innerösterreich-Steiermark. "Nachdem Papst Pius V. wegen der nahen Verwandtschaft des Paars die Dispens erteilt hatte, fand die Heirat von Maria Anna und Erzherzog Karl am 26. August 1571 in Wien statt." - He was 31, she was 20.
74, 75 Wilhelm V. der Fromme (* 29. September 1548 in Landshut; † 7. Februar 1626 in Schleißheim) war von 24. Oktober 1579 bis zu seiner Abdankung am 15. Oktober 1597 Herzog von Bayern. / Renata von Lothringen (* 20. April 1544 in Nancy; † 22. Mai 1602 in München) war eine Tochter des Herzogs Franz I. von Lothringen und dessen Gemahlin Christina von Dänemark. Durch ihre Ehe war sie vom 24. Oktober 1579 bis zum 15. Oktober 1597 Herzogin von Bayern. "Am 22. Februar 1568 heiratete sie den Erbprinzen Wilhelm von Bayern." - He was 19, she was 23.
76, 77 Carlo I. Gonzaga (* 6. Mai 1580 in Paris; † 22. September 1637 in Mantua) war seit 1595 Herzog von Nevers und Rethel und ab 1631 Herzog von Mantua. ... Carlo Gonzaga heiratete im Februar 1599 Catherine de Lorraine (* 1585; † 18. März 1618), Tochter Charles’ II. de Lorraine, Herzog von Mayenne. He was 18, she was 13.
78, 79 Francesco IV Gonzaga (7 May 1586 – 22 December 1612), was Duke of Mantua and (as Francesco II) Duke of Montferrat between 9 February and 22 December 1612. / Margaret of Savoy (28 April 1589 – 26 June 1655) was the last Habsburg Vicereine of Portugal from 1634 to 1640. m. 1608 - He was 21 or 22, she was 18 or 19

80, 81 Antoine (in English, Anthony; 22 April 1518 – 17 November 1562) was the King of Navarre through his marriage (jure uxoris) to Queen Jeanne III, from 1555 until his death. / Jeanne d'Albret (Basque: Joana Albretekoa; Occitan: Joana de Labrit; 16 November 1528 – 9 June 1572), also known as Jeanne III, was the queen regnant of Navarre from 1555 to 1572. "After the death of Francis in 1547 and the accession of Henry II to the French throne, Jeanne married Antoine de Bourbon, "first prince of the blood", at Moulins in the Bourbonnais on 20 October 1548." He was 30, she was 20.
82, 83 Francesco I (25 March 1541 – 19 October 1587) was the second Grand Duke of Tuscany, ruling from 1574 until his death in 1587, a member of the House of Medici. / Joanna of Austria (German Johanna von Österreich, Italian Giovanna d'Austria) (24 January 1547 – 11 April 1578) was an Archduchess of Austria. "Her marriage to Francesco I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany, took place on 18 December 1565 in Florence, after she solemnly arrived in the city by the Porta al Prato." He was 24, she was 18.

84, 85 Philip II (Spanish: Felipe II; 21 May 1527 – 13 September 1598) also known as "Philip the Prudent" (Spanish: Felipe el Prudente) was King of Spain[note 1] (1556–1598), King of Portugal (1580–1598, as Philip I, Portuguese: Filipe I), King of Naples and Sicily (both from 1554), and jure uxoris King of England and Ireland (during his marriage to Queen Mary I from 1554 to 1558).[1] He was also Duke of Milan from 1540.[2] From 1555 he was Lord of the Seventeen Provinces of the Netherlands. / Anna of Austria (2 November 1549 – 26 October 1580) was Queen of Spain by marriage to her uncle, King Philip II of Spain. During her last days of life she was also briefly queen of Portugal. ... They traveled through the Netherlands, where Anna was accosted by friends and relatives of Floris of Montigny, the younger brother of the executed Count of Horn. Floris had been imprisoned in Spain since 1567. Now that King Philip had entered into a new marriage, Floris' family and friends hoped for leniency. They received a promise from the future queen that she would do her utmost to free Floris; however she was unsuccessful, with Floris being strangled on the orders of the king. On 3 October Anna arrived on Spanish soil, but before she could reach the king, Floris was secretly put to death on 16 October 1570. - He was 43, she was 20.
86, 87 Charles II Francis of Austria (German: Karl II. Franz von Innerösterreich) (3 June 1540 – 10 July 1590) was an Archduke of Austria and ruler of Inner Austria (Styria, Carniola, Carinthia and Gorizia) from 1564. He was a member of the House of Habsburg. / Maria Anna of Bavaria (21 March 1551, Munich – 29 April 1608, Graz)[1] was a politically active Archduchess of Austria by marriage to Archduke Charles II of Austria. She played an important role in the counter reformation in Austria. "On 26 August 1571 in Vienna, Maria Anna married her maternal uncle, Charles II of Austria." - He was 31, she was 20.

88, 89 Frederick IV, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (German: Kurfürst Friedrich IV. von der Pfalz; 5 March 1574 – 19 September 1610), only surviving son of Louis VI, Elector Palatine and Elisabeth of Hesse, called "Frederick the Righteous" (German: Friedrich Der Aufrichtige; French: Frédéric IV le juste). / Louise Juliana of Orange-Nassau (31 March 1576 in Delft – 15 March 1644 in Königsberg) was a countess consort of the Palatinate by marriage to Frederick IV, Elector Palatine, and took part in the regency government of her son between 1610 and 1614. ... On 23 June 1593, Louise Juliana married Frederick IV, Elector Palatine of the Rhine. The marriage was arranged as a Protestant alliance between one of the most powerful Protestant German rulers and a member of a powerful Dutch Protestant dynasty and she was granted a dowry from both the Dutch estates and king Henry IV of France. - He was 19, she was 17.
90, 91 James VI and I (James Charles Stuart; 19 June 1566 – 27 March 1625) was King of Scotland as James VI from 24 July 1567 and King of England and Ireland as James I from the union of the Scottish and English crowns on 24 March 1603 until his death in 1625. / Anne of Denmark (Danish: Anna; 12 December 1574 – 2 March 1619) was the wife of King James VI and I, and as such Queen of Scotland from their marriage on 20 August 1589 and Queen of England and Ireland from 24 March 1603 until her death in 1619. He was 23, she was 14.

92, 93 Maurice of Hesse-Kassel (German: Moritz) (25 May 1572 – 15 March 1632), also called Maurice the Learned[1] or Moritz, was the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (or Hesse-Cassel) in the Holy Roman Empire from 1592 to 1627. / Agnes of Solms-Laubach (7 January 1578 – 23 November 1602) was a Countess of Solms-Laubach and, by marriage, Landgravine of Hesse-Kassel from 1593 until her death. ... She married at the age of 15, on 23 September 1593, to Kassel Landgrave Maurice of Hesse-Kassel, whom she had met at the wedding of his oldest sister Anna Maria. Anna's wedding was celebrated in the presence of numerous princely guests. The marriage to the Calvinist Countess increased Maurice ties with the Calvinist counts of Wetterau considerably, although Maurice had chosen Agnes as his wife more out of love than of dynastic calculation. - He was 21, she, as said, 15.
94, 95 Philipp Ludwig II. von Hanau-Münzenberg (1576–1612) ⚭ 1596 Katharina Belgica von Oranien-Nassau (1578–1648) He was 19/20, she was 17/18

(96 to 103 are doubles, all eight of them)

104, 105 Philipp Ludwig von Pfalz-Neuburg (* 2. Oktober 1547 in Zweibrücken; † 22. August 1614 in Neuburg an der Donau) war Pfalzgraf und Herzog von Pfalz-Neuburg aus dem Haus der Wittelsbacher. Durch seine Heirat gewann der Neuburger Herzog den Anspruch auf die Herzogtümer Jülich und Berg am Niederrhein. / Anna von Jülich-Kleve-Berg (* 1. März 1552 in Kleve; † 16. Oktober 1632 in Höchstädt an der Donau) war durch Heirat eine Pfalzgräfin bei Rhein zu Neuburg. ... Als Anna am 27. September 1574 den Prinzen Philipp Ludwig von Pfalz-Zweibrücken, den ältesten Sohn des Herzogs Wolfgang von Pfalz-Zweibrücken, heiratete, bestanden zunächst noch Zweifel an ihrer religiösen Identität, welche sich zu Beginn der insgesamt 40-jährigen Ehe jedoch legten. In konfessioneller Hinsicht schien Anna mit ihrem Gatten übereingestimmt zu haben. - He was 26, she was 22.

106, 107 = 74, 75

108, 109 Ludwig V. von Hessen-Darmstadt (* 24. September 1577 in Darmstadt; † 27. Juli 1626 nahe Rheinfels) war von 1596 bis 1626 Landgraf von Hessen-Darmstadt. Wegen seiner Loyalität zum Kaiser erhielt Ludwig den Beinamen „der Getreue“. / Magdalena von Brandenburg (* 7. Januar 1582 in Berlin; † 4. Mai 1616 in Darmstadt) war eine Prinzessin von Brandenburg und durch Heirat Landgräfin von Hessen-Darmstadt. ... Sie heiratete in aller Stille,[1] kurz nach dem Tod ihres Vaters, am 5. Juni 1598 in Berlin den Landgrafen Ludwig V. von Hessen-Darmstadt (1577–1627), mit dem sie sich bereits im Jahr davor verlobt hatte. He was 20, she was 16.
110, 111 Kurfürst Johann Georg I. von Sachsen (* 5. März 1585 in Dresden; † 8. Oktober 1656 ebenda) war ein Fürst aus dem Hause Wettin (albertinische Linie). Seit dem 23. Juni 1611 war er Kurfürst von Sachsen und Erzmarschall des Heiligen Römischen Reiches. / Magdalena Sibylle von Preußen (* 31. Dezember 1586 in Königsberg; † 12. Februar 1659 in Dresden) war eine Prinzessin des Herzogtums Preußen und durch Heirat Kurfürstin von Sachsen. ... Magdalene Sibylle wurde am 19. Juli 1607 in Torgau die zweite Ehefrau des Kurfürsten Johann Georg I. von Sachsen (1585–1656). He was 22, she was 20.

112, 113 Heinrich, Herzog zu Braunschweig und Lüneburg (* 1533; † 19. Januar 1598) war von 1559 bis 1569 Fürst von Lüneburg sowie von 1569 bis 1598 Inhaber der Herrschaft Dannenberg. / Ursula von Sachsen-Lauenburg (* 1552/53; † 12. Oktober 1620 in Scharnebeck) war eine Prinzessin von Sachsen-Lauenburg und durch Heirat Herzogin von Braunschweig-Dannenberg. ... Sie heiratete 1569 Herzog Heinrich von Braunschweig-Dannenberg (1533–1598). - He was 35/36, she was 15/17.
114, 115 Rudolf von Anhalt-Zerbst (* 28. Oktober 1576 in Harzgerode; † 20. August 1621 in Zerbst) aus dem Geschlecht der Askanier war ein Fürst von Anhalt-Zerbst. / Dorothea Hedwig von Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel (* 3. Februar 1587 in Wolfenbüttel; † 16. Oktober 1609 in Zerbst) war eine Prinzessin von Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel und durch Heirat Fürstin von Anhalt-Zerbst. ... Dorothea Hedwig heiratete am 29. Dezember 1605 in Wolfenbüttel Fürst Rudolf von Anhalt-Zerbst (1576–1621). Sie starb während der Geburt ihres vierten Kindes; eine totgeborene Prinzessin, die erst eine Stunde nach dem Tod der Mutter zur Welt kam. Die Fürstin wurde in der Bartholomäikirche in Zerbst beigesetzt.[1] Ihr Wahlspruch lautete: Die Furcht des Herrn ist der Weisheit Anfang. - He was 29, she was 18.

116, 117 Johann der Jüngere (* 25. März 1545 in Hadersleben; † 9. Oktober 1622 in Glücksburg), dän. Hans den Yngre, war Herzog von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg. Er war der Gründer von Schloss Glücksburg in Glücksburg an der Flensburger Förde. / Mit 23 Jahren heiratete Johann d. J. Elisabeth von Braunschweig-Grubenhagen (* 1550; † 1586), Tochter Ernsts III. von Braunschweig und Lüneburg, Fürst von Grubenhagen-Herzberg. Die Hochzeit fand am 19. August 1568 in Kolding statt. - He was 23, she was 17/18.

118, 119 = 114, 115

120, 121 Ludwig Eberhard zu Oettingen-Oettingen (1577–1617/1634) / Margaretha von Erbach (1576–1635) - no idea what year they married? Unless both married for the second time.
122, 123 Charles VII de Hohenlohe-Neuenstein (en allemand Kraft von Hohenlohe-Neuenstein) est né à Langenbourg (Allemagne) le 14 novembre 1582 et meurt à Ratisbonne le 11 octobre 1641 / Sophie de Deux-Ponts-Birkenfeld (en allemand Sophie von Pfalz-Zweibrücken-Birkenfeld) est née à Ansbach (Allemagne) le 29 mars 1593 et meurt à Neuenstein le 16 novembre 1676. - Le 7 mai 1615 elle se marie à Neuenstein avec le comte Charles VII de Hohenlohe-Neuenstein (1582-1641) - He was 32, she was 21.

124, 125 John Frederick of Württemberg (5 May 1582, in Montbéliard – 18 July 1628) was the Duke of Württemberg from 4 February 1608 until his death on 18 July 1628 whilst en route to Heidenheim. / Barbara Sophia of Brandenburg (16 November 1584 – 13 February 1636) was duchess of Württemberg by marriage to Duke John Frederick of Württemberg and acted as regent of the Duchy of Württemberg for their minor son, Duke Eberhard III of Württemberg, in 1631–1633. ... On 5 November 1609 she married Duke John Frederick of Württemberg (1582–1628), eldest son of Frederick I and Sibylla of Anhalt. - He was 27, she was 24.
126, 127 Anna Caterina Dorotea era la prima delle figlie sopravvissute del conte Giovanni Casimiro di Salm-Kyrburg (1577-1651), un comandante militare al servizio svedese, fratello minore del conte renano Giovanni IX di Kyrburg-Mörchingen, e della di lui moglie, la contessa Dorotea di Solms-Laubach (1579-1631). - Doesn't say what age her parents married, only it was arguably earlier than a year before her birth.

Stop. Here I cease quoting wikipedia and count the ones together, as per above "[h]e was 23, she was 17/18" and so on.

15 16 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 21 21 22 22 22 22 23 23
15 16 17 17 18 19 19 19 20 21 21 21 21 21 22 22 22 23 23
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

24 25 26 26 27 29 30 31 31 32 35 36 40 43 43 44 46 51
24 25 26 26 27 29 30 31 31 32 35 35 40 43 43 44 46 51
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37

Minimum, 15, lower quartile, 20, median 22, higher quartile, 29, maximum, 51.

11 13 14 14 14 15 16 16 16 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 18 18 18
11 13 14 14 14 15 15 16 16 16 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17 17
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

18 18 19 20 20 20 20 20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26
18 18 18 20 20 20 20 20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37

Minimum, 11, lower quartile, 16, median, 17 or 18 according to high or low counts, higher quartile, 20, maximum, 26.

So, one in six girls married at below sixteen. The record youngest may have looked older than she was, since 12 was the canonic legal minimum - or she may have had a Papal dispensation to marry that young.

But less than one boy in seven married before 19. And the youngest was one year older than the canonic age of 14, he was 15.

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Cecilia

Sanctae Caeciliae, Virginis et Martyris, quae ad caelestem Sponsum, proprio sanguine purpurata, transivit sextodecimo Kalendas Octobris.

PS, on the Würtemberg line, it seems, with one or two "probably" that her ancestry goes back to:

Werner V (c. 899 – c. 935) was a Rhenish Franconian count in the Nahegau, Speyergau and Wormsgau. He is one of the earliest documented ancestors of the Salian dynasty that provided German kings and emperors of the Holy Roman Empire from 1024 to 1125.

I take the opportunity to actually link to wiki:

Obviously, that is near 900 years before she was executed, that he was born .../HGL

Sunday, November 21, 2021

"This takes us back to enslavement" a Black woman said ...

Let's check. Kenosha is Wisconsin.

Wisconsin was a free state:

Politics in early Wisconsin were defined by the greater national debate over slavery. A free state from its foundation, Wisconsin became a center of northern abolitionism. The debate became especially intense in 1854 after Joshua Glover, a runaway slave from Missouri, was captured in Racine. Glover was taken into custody under the Federal Fugitive Slave Law, but a mob of abolitionists stormed the prison where Glover was held and helped him escape to Canada. In a trial stemming from the incident, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ultimately declared the Fugitive Slave Law unconstitutional.[49] The Republican Party, founded on March 20, 1854, by anti-slavery expansion activists in Ripon, Wisconsin, grew to dominate state politics in the aftermath of these events.[50] During the Civil War, around 91,000 troops from Wisconsin fought for the Union.

Is there a connection to what Europeans live there? Yes.

At the time of European contact the area was inhabited by Algonquian and Siouan nations, and today is home to eleven federally recognized tribes.[14] Du ring the 19th and early 20th centuries many European settlers entered the state, most of whom emigrated from Germany[15] and Scandinavia.[16] Wisconsin remains a center of German American and Scandinavian American culture.[17]

Why so?

In Sweden, there existed a type of slavery called thraldom. It concerned white people. It was abolished by the King Magnus Eriksson or Magnus IV back in 1335.

In 1335, Magnus outlawed Thralldom (slavery) for thralls "born by Christian parents" in Västergötland and Värend, being the last parts of Sweden where slavery had remained legal.[8] This put an end to Medieval Swedish slavery - though it was only applicable within the borders of Sweden, which left an opening - used long afterwards - for the 17th and 18th Century Swedish slave trade.

Now, if one thing is sure about the Swedes that came to Wisconsin is, they did not participate in our very marginal role in the slave trade, which we ceased having a part in well before the Civil War.

Germans simply had no slave trade at all, so they were even less likely to support slavery in the Civil war.

If there have been white people getting angry at black people in Kenosha, it might be a question of people getting tired of being compared to slave-masters, when they didn't descend from them. When, unlike Lincoln before the Gettisburgh adress, they actually went to war to get black slavery ended, and sometimes died for it.

Denmark and Norway had no slavery either, and insofar as they had a kind of servitude, the Danes and Norwegians who came to Wisconsin were more concerned with escaping it than with imposing it on anyone. Notwithstanding the manners of Mrs Olesen in a televised version of Little House on the Prairie.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Doomsday Sunday

PS, next day:

During the early 19th century, movements against slavery became stronger, especially in Britain. Slave trade was outlawed in Britain in 1807, and in the United States in 1808, after which other countries started to follow suit. Sweden made the slave trade illegal as part of the Treaty of Stockholm with Britain in 1813, but allowed slavery until October 9, 1847.

So we were 18 years ahead of Lincoln ...

In Saint Bartholomew, the Swedish government bought the remaining slaves to give them freedom. According to Herman Lindqvist in Aftonbladet (8 October 2006), 523 slaves were bought free for 80 riksdaler per slave.

So the remaining slaves in 1847 were 523. As said, our part of the slave trade was very marginal, and those who came to Wisconsin were not involved in it.

Tuesday, November 16, 2021

Parlant de fantasy, c'est quoi une langue imaginaire?

Posons une population imaginaire - les Syldaves et Borduriens, nettement dans le XXe siècle dans notre monde - ou dans notre monde un peu remanié (la Syldavie apparaît dans un contexte entre deux guerres et dans un contexte de guerre froide, et Tintin a à peu près le même âge), les Elfes et Gondoriens à la fin du IIIe Âge de la Terre de Milieu (censé se trouver, mais inconnu aux archéologues, vers 4000 à 7000 avant Notre Ère dans l'Europe de l'Ouest ou encore un peu plus à l'Ouest que ça, englouti depuis), le fermiers et Tusken Riders et Jawas de Tatooine il y a très longtemps dans une galaxie très éloignée, les cités paléolithiques de Pal-Ul-Don rencontrés par Tarzan ... - on peut souvent imaginer qu'ils parlent une langue autre que celle de l'auteur et du lecteur.

Mais attention - il y a deux types.

Il y a les langues fictives - l'auteur imagine que des tels ont telle langue, mais elle n'apparaît jamais dans le texte ou dans la bande son, elle peut être pour quelque raison tue ou encore remplacé par une langue qui en réalité ne peut pas être celle visée. Et il y a les langues construites.

Le syldave se trouve à mi-chemin entre les deux cas. C'est très peu probable que dans le Balkan il y ait une population parlant une langue de la famille basse-allemande, puisque le syldave ressemble en beaucoup le marrolsch, dialect urbain du flamand parlé à Brusselles, on peut de ce point de vue considérer le syldave comme une langue fictive - au lieu des mots et phrases en langue slave qu'on pourrait deviner d'une histoire où les Slaves arrivent en VIIe siècle on voit en écrit une langue très proche du marrolsch, comme dit.

D'un autre point de vue, Hergé a pris soin que le syldave ne soit pas strictement identique au marrolsch. Car en marrolsch on s'attendrait à "hei bennek, hei blavek" et on trouve en réalité "eih bennek, eih blavek" ... le flamand ou néerlandais ayant en écrit "Hier ben ik, hier blijf ik."

Si le héro d'un livre ou d'un film est lui-même d'une population imaginaire, alors c'est normal que sa langue soit une langue imaginaire remplacée par justement la langue de l'auteur et de son lectorat, et que dans les traductions elle paraisse dans la forme de la langue cible (pas forcément pour les noms propres, comme Tolkien aura insisté pour ce qui concerne le Westron). Donc, en ce qui concerne le lectorat, westique pour Frodo ou galactique pour Luke Skywalker, c'est une langue fictive. Après, Tolkien a fait un effort de faire aussi une langue construite, et on la trouve un peu dans les appendices.

Pour autres langues que le westique, si apparentées, Tolkien puise dans les langues apparantées à l'anglais - comme si un écrivain français avait par exemple utilisé le vieil espagnol comme "équivalent" du degré de parenté pour - et pour les non apparentés, Tolkien fait des langues construites et il expose le lectorat à leur écoute.

Il y a deux buts en construisant une langue : Zamenhoff avait un but utilitaire ou idéaliste pour une politique équitable entre les peuples, Tolkien avait un but artistique. N'empêche, les deux ont pensé les catégories grammaticaux* pour regarder ce qui va dans les qualités recherchées de leurs langues. Les pronoms non personnels et les adverbes qui y correspondent ont dans l'esperanto la possibilité de se rapporter comme "kiu" = qui? et "nenies" = à personne, nullius. Un i au milieu, une consonne (ou pour nen- une syllabe en plus) au début qui quantifie en inconnu, en personne ou rien du tout, en celui - et une désinence qui donne la catégorie, substantive ou adverbielle. Le quenya a également son truc pour les pronoms, personnels cette fois : sujets affixés comme désinences (aussi les possessives après un substantif) : utúvie-nye-s, je l'ai trouvé. Utúvie = il a trouvé, utúvie-nye, j'ai trouvé, utúvie-nye-s, je l'ai trouvé. Maryat, ses mains (à elle), ma, une main, ma-t, les deux mains, ma-rya-t, ses mains. Avec -rya- = s + ya.

Merci à Monsieur Fauksanger pour l'exemple:

Quenya - the Ancient Tongue : Pronouns

Il paraît que George Lucas n'avait pas l'intérêt de construire des langues. Car la langue des Jawa, c'est du zoulou enrégistré et ensuite mis à double ou triple vitesse. Ça, c'est plutôt vraiment une langue fictive.

7 Languages Spoken in a Galaxy Far, Far Away | Star Wars
5 nov. 2021 | Olly Richards

Une autre langue de "là-bas" est remplacé par le kalmouk, et la langue des Sith semble être (si j'ai bien compris) un polonais légèrement "syldavisé" ... en lettres hébraïques parfois.

Certains prétendent peut-être que, pour avoir une grammaire, une langue a besoin d'avoir des gens qui la parlent réellement entre eux. Mais la grammaire de Zamenhoff est faite avant qu'il y avait d'autres espérantistes, et entretemps, il y a des quenyaphones (quoique pas monoglottes, j'espère).**

Hans Georg Lundahl
Sainte Gertrude

* Pour les deux exemples choisis, Zamenhoff a été inspiré par le Grec ancien, Tolkien par le Turc. Si τις et ουδενος ne semblent pas si proches, il y a toute une gamme dans laquelle ces pronoms s'insèrent, et pour le Turc, buldum = j'ai trouvé ou je l'ai trouvé, ellerim = mes mains, même désinence -m pour le sujet et le possesseur, donc.

** Si le quenya est d'une grammaire et d'un vocabulaire réels, ils ne sont pas complets dans l'œuvre de l'auteur. On a supplémenté depuis, quoique ce n'est "pas canonique" ... et c'est davantage facile de parler d'une battaille perdue ou de la mer que de demander le café, à moins d'y avoir recours.

Tuesday, November 2, 2021

No, Epic Legend does not equal Fantasy

I just read Damien Mackey : Epic Legend, or Real History?

As a historian, I (Damien Mackey) am interested in knowing if there is any archaeological underpinning for these great ancient yarns. Otherwise, I might just as well go off and read Homer’s classics, The Iliad and The Odyssey, or Virgil’s Aeneid, with their semi-divine characters such as Achilles and Aeneas. Or, in modern terms, go and read J. R. R. Tolkien or the Harry Potter series.


1) There is a very huge difference here.

JRRT and Rowling were both writing what was immediately considered as fantasy. Homer and Virgil weren't. True, they had no documentation for each line of Priam or Latinus, but they did not need to according to the then standards of historic accuracy. Did Caesar say "et tu Brute," or "et tu fili" or either of these in Greek? Ancient historians didn't care, the sentiment is the same. When Caesar wrote of his Gallic War, I am not sure everything put into the mouth of each character is the actual words, even if translated from oratio obliqua to oratio recta and even if translated (sometimes) from Latin back to a Gaulish language.

Then, there are scenes that are fantasy. Aeneas was not contemporary to both Trojan War and to Dido - one of the two references needs to be fantastic. As Christians, there are other ones we could add, like descent to netherworlds, unless the nekuiai are considered as hallucinations by Aeneas and Ulysses or as demonic deceptions.

2) Archaeological underpinning is overrated.

You can find the New York (without digging even!) where Daily Bugle is supposed to be a newspaper, without proving Spiderman is history, and you need not find the wood bridge that Caesar put over Lake Geneva to conclude that Gallic Wars are history.

Obviously there is also another problem here ...

3) "with their semi-divine characters such as Achilles and Aeneas"

As Christians, we cannot accept the idea there is a goddess of love and that she was mother of Aeneas. We cannot accept there is a one god of thunder, same as the most high, and that he was father of Hercules. But this does not put Virgil or Homer into the realm of fantasy, as these false assessments of Aeneas' and Hercules' origins could well go back to those who lived around them. Being pagans, they made errors. Making errors about the divine, they made errors about men too.

With paternity of Romulus, it could be a question of a demon assisted procreation : a demon plays the succuba role when collecting sperms and the incubus role when inseminating. With divine mothers, this is of course less likely. Two men are both said to be ancestors of Emperors and having a goddess in near or far ancestry : Aeneas (via his son Iulus ancestor of Iulius Caesar) and Tenno Jimmu. With Aeneas, the mother is supposed to be the goddess of love, thus Venus in Roman terms, with Jimmu, the great-grand-mother some generations removed is supposed to be the sun-goddess, in Japanese terms Amaterasu.

There is a person who would fit both goddess roles, if one accepts that pagans could have considered a goddess as mother if her priestess in function were to give birth. Puduhepa, before being the queen consort of Hattusili III, was the priestess of the sun goddess of Arinna and of the goddess of love, and she syncretistically identified both goddesses with each other.

When it comes to Achilles, his origins were somewhat remote, geographically, to the rest of the Achaean army, and he had a property which tends sometimes to get magical explanations. Charles XII was never hit by a bullet except the wound before Poltava and the final shot that killed him. Francisco Franco was never hit by a bullet either. There is a German term for the property, "Kugelfest" and there are superstitious ways to acquire it, when one doesn't, as one should, ascribe it to simple Providence (like the fact Our Lord never had a bone fracture, even on the Cross, where many others had such). Some would have considered a man who was "Kugelfest" as in league with the devil - and hence one can imagine how never getting cut by sword or lance in battle gave rise to imaginations of things like a fairy godmother - or in this case a "fairy mother" with the real wife of Peleus out of sight from those speculating.

But while we are at archaeological underpinning, perhaps Damien Mackey would give such for King David facing "horsemen" both in Kings and in Paralipomena in Greek, and in Kings in Hebrew? Archaeologically, cavalry is supposed to start c. 800 - 700 BC in Assyria.

Hans Georg Lundahl
All Souls' Day

PS - you don't need any nekuia to pray for the Holy Souls, today!
PPS - apart from above quote, the paper is fairly readable./HGL

Sunday, September 26, 2021

Groupes de langues.

Je viens de prendre un texte assez informatif et quand même pas trop controversiel, ajoutant à fur et mesure des faits assez banales sur les deux prières les plus souvent utilisées par nous Catholiques.

D'abord en anglais, suédois et allemand, le groupe germanique, ensuite français et espagnol, le groupe roman, et finalement croate et polonais, le groupe slave. Pour certaines des langues, je suis davantage redevable à google translate que sur les autres, que les Croates et les Polonais m'excusent, surtout!

Our Father is the main Christian prayer.
Fader Vår är den främsta kristna bönen.
Vater Unser ist das wichtigste christliche Gebet.

Notre Père est la principale prière chrétienne.
Nuestro Padre es la principal oración cristiana.

Oče naš je glavna kršćanska molitva.
Ojcze nasz jest główną modlitwą chrześcijańską.

It comes from Our Lord and is called the Lord's prayer.
Den kommer från Vår Herre och kallas Herrens bön.
Es kommt von Unserem Lieben Herrgott und wird das Vaterunser genannt.

Elle vient de Notre-Seigneur et s'appelle la prière du Seigneur.
Viene de Nuestro Señor y se llama la oración del Señor.

Dolazi od Gospodara našega i naziva se Gospodnja molitva.
Pochodzi od Naszego Pana i nazywa się modlitwą Pańską.

Hail Mary is from the Angel Gabriel and is called the Angelic Salutation. Most Protestant don't use it, but Catholics do.
Hell dig Maria är från engeln Gabriel och kallas Englahelsningen. De flesta protestanter använder den inte, men katoliker gör det.
Ave Maria stammt vom Engel Gabriel und wird Engelsgruß genannt. Die meisten Protestanten benutzen es nicht, aber Katholiken tun es.

Je vous salue Marie vient de l'ange Gabriel et s'appelle la salutation angélique. La plupart des protestants ne l'utilisent pas, mais les catholiques le font.
Ave María es del ángel Gabriel y se llama el saludo angelical. La mayoría de los protestantes no lo usan, peró los católicos sí.

Zdravo Marijo je od anđela Gabrijela i zove se anđeoski pozdrav. Većina protestanata ga ne koristi, ali katolici ga koriste.
Zdrowaś Maryjo pochodzi od Anioła Gabriela i nazywa się Pozdrowienie Anielskie. Większość protestantów go nie używa, ale katolicy tak.

Et voici les groupes de langues, avec le vocabulaire comparé:

Français  Espagnol
notre  nuestro
père padre
est es
la / le la / el
principale principal
prière oración
chrétienne cristiana
elle (omis, mis "ella")
vient viene
de de
seigneur señor
et y
s'appelle se llama
du Seigneur del Señor
[Ave] Ave
ange ángel
salutation saludo
angélique angelical
la plupart des la mayoría de
ne ... pas no
utilisent usan
mais peró
le font -
[oui] si

Français Anglais Suédois Allemand
notre  our vår unser
père father fader Vater
est is är ist
la / le the den(det) ...-n(-t) der, die das
principale main främsta wichtigste
prière prayer bön Gebet
chrétienne Christian kristna christliche
(il)elle it den es
vient comes kommer kommt
de from från von
seigneur lord herre Herr
et and och und
s'appelle is called kallas wird genannt
[Ave (tibi)] hail hell dig heil dir
ange angel engel Engel
salutation greeting helsning Gruß
la plupart des most de flesta die meisten
ne ... pas do not(don't) intet nicht
utilisent use använder benutzen
mais but men aber
le font do gör det tun es
oui - - schon

Français Polonais Croate
notre  nasz(ego) naš(ega)
père ojcze oče
est jest je
la / le - -
principale główną glavna
prière modlitwą molitva
chrétienne chrześcijańską kršćanska
elle - -
vient pochodzi dolazi
de od od
seigneur Pan(a) Gospodar(a)
et i i
s'appelle nazywa się naziva se
[Ave] zdrowaś zdravo
de l'ange od anioła od anđela
salutation pozdrowienie pozdrav
angélique anielskie anđeoski
la plupart des większość (gen pl) većina
ne ... pas nie ne
"le" go ga
utilisent używa koristi
mais ale ali
le font - koristi
oui tak 

Je pense qu'on devrait être assez épais pour ne pas comprendre que le français est apparenté à l'espagnol, l'anglais, le suédois et l'allemand entre eux et le polonais au croate. Obviement, en chaque cas, c'est possible que juste quelques langues d'une famille descendaient de l'ancêtre commun et que d'autres s'y adaptaient très fortement - comme papamiento, au début une langue créole du portugais, à l'espagnol ou comme le scanien, au début un dialecte danois, au suédois. Mais le résultat s'approche à ce qu'il serait avec une origine commune.

Par contre, que toutes ces langues soient d'une seule famille dite indo-européenne est plus opaque, et surtout a été contesté, par Trubetskoy. J'ai tendance à me ranger avec lui : pas une langue ancestrale, mais des adaptations beaucoup moins complètes qu'entre papamiento et l'espagnol et de la suite.

Hans Georg Lundahl
18e Dim. après Pent.

Wednesday, September 1, 2021

Fairly good overview, but two remarks

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: Fairly good overview, but two remarks · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Proto-Germanic Origins

The Israelites / Forging of a nation
by Robert Carter and Lita Sanders, Published: 2 September 2021 (GMT+10)

  • 1. Let's not miss what present ethnicities descend from these : not just Shepharad and Marrano, not just Ashkenazi and what I call for lack of a better word "Nordic Marrano", not just Persian Jews, Falashas and Mitzrahi, but also : Christian Palestinians, and over these, Muslim Palestinians.
  • 2. Authors have misunderstood the meaning of Afro-Asiatic.

Here is the footnote:

Hebrew belongs to the Semitic language family, as opposed to the Afro-Asiatic language spoken in ancient Egypt. This is not to say that Hebrew has not changed. The language Moses spoke seems to have changed from the time of Jacob. For example, consider the spelling differences between Jacob’s grandsons listed in Genesis 46 and Numbers 26. Return to text.

I am thankful for the observation on language change within Hebrew, but I am less glad about the phrase "Semitic language family, as opposed to the Afro-Asiatic language spoken in ancient Egypt" which doesn't directly deny, but suggests the denial of Semitic also being "Afro-Asiatic"- in fact both Hebrew and Egyptian do count as Afro-Asiatic, the latter family having these branches, if such:

  • Berber
  • Chadic
  • Cushitic
  • Egyptian
  • Semitic
  • Omotic (disputed)

Formerly, all or most of the non-Semitic members were classified as Hamitic. Now, Afro-Asiatic is not a standing for "Hamitic" but for "Hamitic AND Semitic".

Don't you believe Semitic and especially Hebrew evolved from a proto-language that also gave rise to Coptic and Berber? Neither do I ... as I also put doubts on the Indo-European group being a family rather than a Sprachbund./HGL

PS, it may be mentioned, Christian Palestinians spoke Aramaic up to Counter-Crusade, and Muslim Palestinians shifted over the centuries after the Islamic Conquest. So, they spoke the language in which we have Abun Dbashmaya./HGL

Sunday, August 22, 2021

Crimean Tatars, Like the Back Then Ukraine, Were a Victim of Holodomor

Russian Kolkhoses back then could have been victims of their incompetence, but Gendrikh Yagoda let (along with his boss Stalin), Ukraineans and Crimeans (not same thing prior to Khruschev) pay for it.

I am saying this, because some accuse them of serving Ukrainean interests* ... as if that were a bad thing:

At the same time, Russian officials have accused the leaders of Crimean Tatars who protested the annexation of serving Ukrainian interests and Russian law punishes those calling for Crimea to be returned to Ukraine.

And where does this lead to?

For Kudusov and others in Crimea, the Russian takeover evoked tragic family memories of the 1944 mass deportation of Crimean Tatars on Soviet dictator Josef Stalin’s order, raising fears of discrimination and persecution. Their fears have materialized. A few friends of Kudusov who stayed in Crimea have since been convicted on charges of extremism, separatism and membership in banned organizations and have been sentenced to prison terms ranging from eight to 19 years.

I recall following with interest, even after my return to Roman Catholicism, the Gothic Orthodox Church. Using Gothic as a liturgic language, having their own bishop or metropolitan. I read about Gothic Orthodox being accused of National Socialism or of fomenting ethnic hatred, and being sent to prison. I don't know what has meanwhile happened to the Gothic Orthodox bishop. In honour of Ukraineans, Tatars, Cossack's, Goths (of Crimea and of internet), "Bandura" - Dmitry Seleznev - Kuban Cossack Choir./HGL

* mail dot com : Crimean Tatars bemoan their plight as Ukraine hosts summit

Friday, August 20, 2021

Et encore, pour son mari?

Mariées (et mariés) à quel âge, premières noces? · Et encore, pour son mari? · Mariés avant 16, le couple martyr et leurs ancêtres

Je commence avec cet article wikipédia:

Et ici aussi, j'avais déjà fait un article sur l'espérance de vie:

Et les ancêtres du roi martyr? Regardons aussi la parité entre les sexes ... ou même le privilège féminin

Le concerné :
1 Louis XVI, né le 23 août 1754, marié le 16 mai 1770, il avait 15 ans.

Les parents :
2 Louis de France, dauphin du Viennois, né le 4 septembre 1729 au château de Versailles et 3 Marie Josèphe Caroline Éléonore Françoise Xavière de Saxe, née le 4 novembre 1731 à Dresde sont mariés le 9 février 1747. Elle avait alors 15 ans. Son mari était veuf, avait eu un premier mariage le 23 février 1745, quand il avait 15 ans, et l'infante Marie-Thérèse, née le 11 juin 1726, avait 18.

Les grand-parents :
4 Louis XV, dit le « Bien-Aimé », né le 15 février 1710 à Versailles5 Marie Leszczynska, née le 23 juin 1703 à Trzebnica sont mariés le 5 septembre 1725 à Fontainebleau. Il avait 15 ans et elle 22.

6 Auguste III de Pologne, né le 17 octobre 1696 à Dresde, et 7 Marie-Josèphe de Habsbourg, archiduchesse d'Autriche, née le 8 décembre 1699, sont mariés le 20 août 1719, quand il a 22 ans et elle 19.

Les arrière-grands-parents :
8 Louis de France né en 1682, château de Versailles et 9 Marie-Adélaïde de Savoie, née le 6 décembre 1685 à Turin, mariés le 7 décembre 1697. Il avait 15, elle avait 12.

10 Stanislas Leszczynski, né le 20 octobre 1677 à Lwów et 11 Katarzyna Opalińska, née le 13 octobre 1680 à Poznań, mariés en mai 1698, il avait 20, elle avait 17.

12 Frédéric-Auguste Ier de Saxe, dit « Auguste le Fort », né le 12 mai 1670 à Dresde et 13 Christiane-Eberhardine de Brandebourg-Bayreuth, née le 19 décembre 1671 Bayreuth, sont mariés le 20 janvier 1693. Il avait 22 et elle 21.

14 Joseph de Habsbourg, né à Vienne le 26 juillet 1678 et 15 Wilhelmine-Amélie de Brunswick-Lünebourg, née le 21 avril 1673 à Hanovre, sont mariés le 24 février 1699. Il avait 20, elle avait 25.

Les arrière-arrière-grand-parents:
16 Louis de France, dit Monseigneur, ou le Grand Dauphin après sa mort, né à Fontainebleau le 1er novembre 1661 et 17 Marie Anne Christine Victoire Josèphe Bénédicte Rosalie Pétronille de Bavière, née le 28 novembre 1660 à Munich, sont mariés en 1680. Il avait alors probablement 18 et elle 19. (Il aura une seconde femme, mais ce n'importe pas pour ses premières noces.)

18 Victor-Amédée II de Savoie, né à Turin le 14 mai 1666 et 19 Anne-Marie d’Orléans, petite-fille de France, née à Saint-Cloud, 1669, mariés en en 1684. Lui à 17 ou 18, elle a 14 ou 15.

20 Rafał Leszczyński, né en 1650 et 21 Anna Leszczyńska, née Jabłonowska en 1660, mariés en 1676. Il avait 25 ou 26, elle 15 ou 16.

22 Jan Karol Opaliński, né le 10 janvier 1642 et 23 Zofia Czarnkowska Opalińska née le 12 mars 1660, mariés le 4 septembre 1678, lui ayant 36 ans et elle 18.

24 Jean-Georges III, né le 20 juin 1647 à Dresde et 25 Anne-Sophie de Danemark et de Norvège, née le 1er septembre 1647, sont mariés le 9 octobre 1666. Il avait 19 ans, elle 19 aussi.

26 Christian-Ernest de Brandebourg-Bayreuth, né le 27 juillet 1644, à Bayreuth et 27 Sophie-Louise de Wurtemberg, née le 19 février 1642 à Stuttgart sont mariés là même le 8 février 1671. Il avait 26, elle avait 28. Il avait eu une première femme, aura une troisième. Quand il épousa sa première femme, en 1662, il avait 17 ou 18, comme elle.

28 Léopold Ier de Habsbourg, né à Vienne le 9 juin 1640 et 29 Éléonore Madeleine Thérèse du Palatinat-Neubourg, née le 6 janvier 1655 à Düsseldorf, sont mariés 14 décembre 1676 à Passau. Il avait 36 ans, elle avait 21. Elle était sa troisième femme, il avait été marié en 1666 à Marguerite-Thérèse d'Autriche, infante d'Espagne, née le 12 juillet 1651 à l'Alcázar royal de Madrid, quand il avait 26 et elle 14 ans, et encore le 15 octobre 1673 à l'archiduchesse Claude-Félicité d'Autriche, née le 30 mai 1653 à Florence, quand elle avait 20 ans.

30 Jean-Frédéric de Brunswick-Calenberg, né le 25 avril 1625, Herzberg et 31 Bénédicte Henriette de Wittelsbach, née le 14 mars 1652 à Paris, sont mariés le 30 novembre 1668. Il avait 43 ans et elle 16.

Plaçons les valeurs en grandeur grandissante, comptons leurs emplacements :

Lui :
15 15 15 15 18 18 18 19 20 20 22 22 26 26 36 43
15 15 15 15 17 17 18 19 20 20 22 22 25 26 36 43
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

Elle :
12 14 15 16 16 17 18 18 19 19 19 20 21 21 22 25 28
12 14 14 15 16 17 17 18 19 19 19 20 21 21 22 25 28
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Les minima étaient pour les hommes 15 et pour les femmes 12.
Les quartiles basses pour les hommes entre 15 et 17 ou entre 15 et 18, pour les femmes 16.
Les médianes étaient pour les hommes entre 19 et 20, pour les femmes 19.
Les quartiles hautes étaient pour les hommes entre 22 et 25 ou entre 22 et 26, pour les femmes 21.
Les maxima étaient pour les hommes 43 et pour les femmes 28.

Étaient mariées sur trente-trois personnes, une à 12, une ou deux à 14, cinq à 15, une ou deux à 16, entre une et quatre à 17, entre deux et cinq à 18, quatre à 19, trois à 20, deux à 21, trois à 22, une ou deux à 25, une ou deux à 26, une pour chaque âge entre 28, 36 et 43.

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Samuel

In Judaea sancti Samuelis Prophetae, cujus sancta ossa (ut beatus Hieronymus scribit) Arcadius Augustus Constantinopolim transtulit, et prope Septimum collocavit.

Friday, August 13, 2021

Mariées (et mariés) à quel âge, premières noces?

Mariées (et mariés) à quel âge, premières noces? · Et encore, pour son mari? · Mariés avant 16, le couple martyr et leurs ancêtres

Je pars de cet article sur wikipédia:

Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche

On a déjà eu les âges à leurs décès, ici :

Sur les Dévanceurs de Marie-Antoinette

Il faut noter qu'une généalogie par le fait de noter les ancêtres de quelqu'un évite de comptabiliser la mortalité infantile et partie de la mortalité juvénile (avant le mariage).

La concernée :
1 Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche, née le 2 novembre 1755, mariée 21 avril 1770, elle a 14.

Parents :
2 François Ier (empereur du Saint-Empire), né le 8 décembre 1708 et 3 Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche (1717-1780), née le 13 mai 1717, sont mariés le 12 février 1736, lui à 27, elle à 18.

Grand-parents :
4 Léopold Ier de Lorraine, né le 11 septembre 1679 et 5 Élisabeth-Charlotte d'Orléans, née le 13 septembre 1676 sont mariés le 13 octobre 1698, lui à 19, elle à 22.
6 Charles VI (empereur du Saint-Empire), né le 1er octobre 1685 et 7 Élisabeth-Christine de Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, née le 28 août 1691 sont mariés le 1er août 1708, lui à 22, elle à 16.

Arrière-grand-parents :
8 Charles V de Lorraine, né le 3 avril 1643 et 9 Éléonore d'Autriche (1653-1697) née le 31 mai 1653 sont mariés en en 1678, elle avait été mariée au roi de Pologne en 1670, quand Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki avait 30 ans, elle donc 17, et pour ses sécondes noces, le mari avait 35.
10 Philippe d'Orléans (1640-1701), né le 21 septembre 1640 et 11 Élisabeth-Charlotte de Bavière, née le 27 mai 1652 sont mariés 16 novembre 1671, elle avait 19, il avait été marié le 31 mars 1661 à Henriette d'Angleterre quand elle avait 17 ans, et lui 21.
12 Léopold Ier (empereur du Saint-Empire), né à Vienne le 9 juin 1640 et 13 Éléonore de Neubourg, née le 6 janvier 1655 sont mariés en 1676, elle avait 21, il avait été marié en 1666 à Marguérite-Thérèse, Infante d'Espagne, alors 15 ans (ou 14) et en 1673 à Claude-Félicité d'Autriche, alors 20 (ou 19), il avait donc à son premier mariage 26.
14 Louis-Rodolphe de Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, né le 22 juillet 1671 et 15 Christine-Louise d'Oettingen-Oettingen, née 20 mars 1671 sont mariés en 1690, les deux 19.

16 Nicolas-François de Lorraine, né le 6 décembre 1609 et 17 Claude-Françoise de Lorraine, née le 6 octobre 1612; leur mariage eut lieu à Lunéville le 18 février 1634, lui 24, elle 21.
18 Ferdinand III de Habsbourg, né le 13 juillet 1608 et 19 Éléonore de (Nevers-)Mantoue, Éléonore de Gonzague-Mantoue ou Éléonore de Mayenne, née le 18 novembre 1630 : [l]e 30 avril 1651, à Wiener Neustadt en Autriche, elle devient la 3e épouse de Ferdinand III, roi de Hongrie et de Bohême, empereur germanique. Il avait avant été marié, premièrement, en 1631, sa première épouse fut Marie-Anne d'Autriche, infante d'Espagne (1606-1646) fille de Philippe III, roi d'Espagne et de Portugal et de Marguerite d'Autriche-Styrie.Après la mort de Marie-Anne le 13 mai 1646, Ferdinand III épousa en 1648, l'archiduchesse Marie-Léopoldine d'Autriche (1632-1649) fille de Léopold V d'Autriche-Tyrol, comte et électeur du Tyrol et de Claude de Toscane. Il était, à son premier mariage, 23, elle 21, ses épouses d'avant ayant eu 25 et 16
20 Louis XIII, dit « le Juste », fils d'Henri IV et de Marie de Médicis, né le 27 septembre 1601 au château de Fontainebleau et 21 Anne d'Autriche (en espagnol Ana María Mauricia de Austria y Austria-Estiria), infante d’Espagne, infante du Portugal, archiduchesse d’Autriche, princesse de Bourgogne et princesse des Pays-Bas, née le 22 septembre 1601 à Valladolid en Espagne sont d'abord mariés par procuration à Burgos. Le mariage en France d'Anne d'Autriche et Louis XIII est célébré à Bordeaux le 21 novembre suivant (1615). Lui et elle ont, les deux, 14 ans.
22 Charles-Louis Ier du Palatinat, né le 22 décembre 1617 à Heidelberg et 23 Charlotte de Hesse-Cassel, née le 20 novembre 1627 à Cassel. Elle se marie avec Charles Ier Louis du Palatinat, le 22 février 1650 au château de Heidelberg. Il a 32, elle a 22.
24 = 18, et 25 premier mariage déjà évoqué.
26 Philipp Wilhelm von der Pfalz, né le 24 novembre 1615 à Neubourg et 27 Élisabeth-Amélie de Hesse-Darmstadt, née le 20 mars 1635, sont mariés en 1653. Il avait déjà été marié en 1642 avec Anne Catherine Constance (1615-1652), fille du roi de Pologne Sigismond III Vasa. Il avait 27, la première 27, la seconde 18
28 Antoine-Ulrich 4 octobre 1633, Hitzacker et 29 Elisabeth Juliane von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Norburg) [qui] est née à Norbourg (Allemagne) le 24 mai 1634 sont mariés le 17 août 1656 à Wolfenbüttel : ils ont, les deux, 22
30 Albrecht Ernst I. zu Oettingen-Oettingen) [qui] est né à Oettingen (Allemagne) le 10 octobre 1642 et31 Christine Friederike von Württemberg) [qui] est née à Stuttgart (Allemagne) le 28 février 1644 sont mariés le 7 juin 1665 à Stuttgart : il a 22, elle a 21.

elle a :
14 14 14 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 19 21 21 21 21 22 22 22 25 27 (bas compte)
14 14 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 21 21 21 21 22 22 22 25 27 (haut compte)
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

lui a :
14 19 19 21 22 22 22 23 24 26 27 27 30 32 35
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15

Pour les mariées, le minimum est 14, la quartile basse 17, la médiane 19, la quartile haute 21, et le maximum est 27. Pour leurs époux, le minimum est 14, la quartile basse 21/22, la médiane 23, la quartile haute 27 et le maximum est 35.

Sur 36 personnes, 4 sont mariées à 14, possiblement 15 pour une, 2 à 16, 2 à 17, 2 à 18, 5 à 19 ou possiblement 20 pour une, 5 à 21, 6 à 22, une pour chaque âge de 23 à 26, 3 à 27, une personne, plus précisément un homme, pour chaque âge des trois âges 30, 32, et 35.

Seul a été comptabilisé l'âge aux premières noces. Chaque fois qu'il y a eu plusieures noces, il y a eu des décès.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Sainte Radegonde