Sunday, July 18, 2021

Rivarol 3480 ... et mon bac


Quel rapport? Ayant eu un bac littéraire, j'ai une nostalgie d'être aussi matheux. Donc, je fais les facteurs premiers, et je trouve que 3480 = 23*5*87, soit 40 * 87.

40 est un chiffre à prendre au sérieux, et 87 ... ma propre classe au bac, c'était celle qui avait le pull "Charlie's angels" - gloriole et queue en diablotin - et la classe IB, qui aurait pu être la mienne, c'était "love is fun and sex is heaven, we're the class of 87".

Donc, je m'amuse un peu avec l'histoire par rapport à mon bac et par rapport à Rivarol 3480.

Tout d'abord, Robert Spieler vient de faire une gaffe à propos le conflit qui menait à Königgrätz, pardon, Sadowa. Certes, en contexte sur l'Italie, donc sur Garibaldi, mais quand même.

Comme vous savez, peut-être, au Moyen Âge, le roi d'Angleterre était aussi Seigneur en Aquitaine, en fief sous le roi de France. Là, la Guerre de Cent Ans vient de changer la donne. Le roi du Danemark était aussi le duc (sous le Saint-Empire Germanique) de Slesvig-Holsten (en danois), de Sleswig-Holsteen (oui, le bas-allemand le prononce de même manière) ou de Schleswig-Holstein (la manière du haut-allemand est différente).

Et là, ce qui a changé la donne, c'est que Napoléon dissout le Saint-Empire. Donc, pour Slesvig-Holsten, le roi danois n'est plus responsable devant l'empereur à Vienne. Ceci depuis 1806. Par contre, la Conférence de Vienne établit la confédération germanique. Deux des états en étaient Holstein et Holstein-Oldenburg, et le duché de Holstein allait contenir celui de Slesvig, un duché danois, à partir de 1848.

La situation n'est pas exactement idéale pour ce genre d'arrangement dans un temps de nationnalisme revenant au galop. En 1848, Frédéric VII donne une constitution libérale, et cessent les discriminations contre la langue danoise, en Slesvig. La première guerre de Slesvig étend cet arrangement sur Holstein aussi, la victoire danoise étant à Idstedt. Il n'avait pas de successeur. Les lois de succession pour Slesvig, comme pour le Danemark, précisaient Christian IX. Ceux pour Holstein, par contre, précisaient Frédéric VIII de Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg, et il se considérait aussi comme successeur légitime de Schleswig.

Christian IX voulait (en Novembre 1863) une constitution commune pour le Danemark et le Slesvig, pour protéger les prétensions de Frédéric VIII, Otto von Bismarck proteste, et la Prusse et l'Autriche entrent en guerre contre le Danemark pour protéger la pertinence de Holstein à la Confédération Germanique. Toute le Slesvig ira avec.

Après, non, Holstein n'était pas exactement sous contrôle autrichienne, c'est plutôt l'armée de la Prusse qui empêche de fait Frédéric VIII de jouir de souveraineté sur Holstein. C'est elle qui a gagné la battaille de Dybbøl, avec l'aide du kamikaze Karl Klinke. Après, l'Autriche demande que Holstein devienne souverain dedans la confédération, la Prusse par contre, en mémoire du "sacrifice" de Karl Klinke, demande que la Prusse puisse prendre Holstein. Non, on s'était battus pour la constitution de la Confédération germanique et pour la souverainté de Holstein, dit-Autriche. La Prusse de répondre, "nous on s'est battus plus, voir Karl Klinke" (c'est vrai que le contingent prussien était aussi plus important) "donc, de nous de requalifier le jeu". Le Holstein, avec Saxe-Lauenburg, est sous contrôle prussien. Par contre, le Schleswig (seul) est sous contrôle autrichien.

Là, les choses se gâchent. La Prusse finit par bouffer Holstein et Schleswig, et, contrairement aux termes de la paix de Prague, les habitants du Slesvig Septentrional ne sont pas consultés en référendum s'ils veulent plutôt la Prusse ou le retour au Danemark. En 1867, la Prusse annexe tout le territoire comme une province de la Prusse. On germanise à droite et à gauche, un peu comme on essayait de le faire en Alsace-Lorraine, conquises un peu plus tard.

Revenons à mon bac ... le grand meneur de la classe, c'était pas moi, mais mon adversaire. Il avait fait les catacombes de Paris la nuit, en fumant. Il était ultra-fan de Moebius (je n'ai pas manqué à découvrir un de ses trucs techniques, puisque tellement vanté par l'Asperge, comme il était surnommé). Par contre, on a fait une collaboration sur la Guerre de Sécession, on défendait la thèse que le Capitalisme industriel du Nord était, plutôt que la libération des esclaves, la vraie motivation pour Lincoln, et que donc, les Sudistes avaient quelque part raison.

C'était à l'époque que j'étais en train de convertir à l'Église catholique. Il m'aurait engueulé, s'il avait sû que plus tard je serai lecteur de Fustel de Coulanges, Bainville, Maurras. Mais il aimait "we don't need no education" par Pink Floyd, et moi aussi, j'étais contre l'obligation scolaire. En Autriche, j'avais profité de scolarité à maison, en Suède c'était quasi impossible, c'est pour ça que je me trouvait à cette école.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
VIIIe Dimanche après Pentecôte
18.VII.2021

PS. On peut noter, la Guerre de Sécession n'était pas un dispute à propos le trafic atlantiques d'esclaves, interdit en toute l'Union, y compris ce qui devint brièvement la Confédération, depuis 1820./HGL

Sunday, July 11, 2021

Juste l'une des deux traditions, et encore mainte improbabilité


À quoi servent Les Eddas? · Le Qohelet de Codex regius · Hávamál et Torah · Sigurd - un héro, deux saints · Juste l'une des deux traditions, et encore mainte improbabilité

Alors, cette partie de la légende de Sigurd (ou Sigfried) ne l'est pas dans la version allemande, au moins pas la version de Nibelungenlied (je dois avoir ne pas avoir puisé du tout dans la version connue comme "Hürnen Seyfirt" - Sigfried Cornu, à la peau cornue, version qui détaille ses changements physiques après le bain dans le sang du dragon).

En plus, il y a plus qu'un détail qui peut sembler louche.

D'ailleurs, on la connait moins des poëmes de Codex Regius, uniquement de l'Edda de Snorrë, et encore des Fornaldarsögur - dires des âges révolues (à l'opposé des Íslendingasögur*, dires contemporains sur les héros assez récemment vivants à l'époque sur Islande même). Les sources, à peu près disant les mêmes choses, sont donc Völsunga saga dans les sögur, et bonne partie de Skáldskaparmál, dans l'Edda.

Allons, alors. Une partie concerne l'anneau du nain Andvarë. Les trois dieux Odën, Höner, Lokë** se promènent, ils commettent par inadvertance un homicide, car l'homme s'était changé en loutre qu'ils mangent avec le saumon qu'il tenait, ils ramènent la peau du loutre là où ils vont être accueillis, chez Reidmar***, et celui comprend que son fils Loutre a été tué, et ses deux autres fils ligotent les divinités, qui jurent de ramener un trésor. Ils reçoivent de l'aide un peu involontaire du nain Andvarë, qui a un anneau magique capable à générer des richesses. Le nain les maudit quand ils demandent aussi l'anneau, et ensuite, sa malédiction tombe sur la famille de Reidmar, une fois que la peau du loutre doit être intièrement couvert, et l'anneau y va comme dernier détail. Là, pas de doute, on a cherché une histoire on ne peut plus fantastique pour donner une explication d'où vient le trésor. Les deux fils survivants de Reidmar vont jouer un rôle de la suite, Favnë comme dragon, Regin comme incitant Sigurd a tuer le dragon (qui est donc son frère ... charmante famille, non?)

Là, je passe aux origines familiales de Sigurd, selon la Völsunga saga et selon Skáldskaparmál.

Il était, en Suède, un homme Siguë° est battu en chasse, et tue le meilleur chasseur qui est un esclave°°, d'où son exile en Hunaland ... terre, soit des Huns, soit des Franks, selon les sources et leurs interprètes. Il me semble que la meilleure interprétation pourrait être celui des Huns, mais d'autres penchent pour les Franks. Sa mort là-bas sera vengé par son fils Rerir. Rerir et son fils Völsë seront aussi rois des Huns.

Un jour un vieillard borgne entre dans la salle de Völsë. Il pose une épée dans un tronc de chêne, autour duquel la salle est bâtie. Il dit "que le meilleur prenne l'épée". Seul Sigmund, fils de Völsë, réussit.

Un peu après, le roi Siggeir de Gautland deviendra l'époux de Signy, la sœur de Sigmund, et on se dispute s'il était rois des Geatas ou Götar en Suède, ou des Goths. De toute manière, il va massacrer la belle-famille, dont seul Sigmund (encore lui) réussit à s'échapper d'un prison où l'un après l'autre aura été tué. Sigmund deviendra un hors la loi, et Signy lui fournit deux de ses neveux, fils de Siggeir, pour l'aider à prendre revanche, enfin le troisième neveu, Sinfjötlë, sera aussi son fils. Lui et Sigmund vont se venger sur Siggeir, avec qui Signy choisit de brûler, plutôt de se joindre aux vengeurs, à ce moment.

Plus tard Sigmund épousera Borghild, mais pas contente d'elle seule, va devenir le rival du frère de celle-ci, et le tuer, et Borghild va tuer Sinfjötlë.

Quand Sigmund sera vieux, il épousera Hjördis. Avant la naissance du fils, il va devoir affronter encore un roi, Lyngvë, mais dans la battaille, Odën en personne va l'affronter et le tuer. La veuve épousera le roi Hjalprek, du Danemark. Et là, sera d'abord protégée la grossesse, et Sigurd va naître chez lui.

Et Sigurd va rencontrer Regin, être persuadé de tuer Favnë, decevoir l'espoir de Regin d'avoir le trésor d'Andvarë. Il va rencontrer Odën et trouver le cheval Granë par son conseil. Ceci étant un des débuts possible pour la carrière de Sigurd selon soit le Codex Regius, soit Nibelungenlied.

Ici, je vais considérer ce qui se passe jusqu'à la naissance de Sigurd.

Il y a plusieurs raisons évidents pourquoi, normalement parlé, ceci ne doit pas avoir eu lieu. Odën est un faux dieu, il ne pourrait pas en tant qu'homme être adulte quand Siguë nait et encore en vie quand Sigurd est jeune homme. Ou même encore quand Sigmund l'était.

Si le beau-fils d'Odën, Yngwë-Frey fonde la dynastie des Ynglings à une époque telle que son fils à lui - non divinisé - meurt dans le vat d'hydromel d'un roi danois contemporain de César Auguste, Odën devrait être mort vers 40 ou 20 avant Jésus-Christ, et si la veuve de Sigurd épouse Attila le Hun, bien avant que celui-ci massacre Gondicaire en 437 AD, on peut considérer Sigurd comme à peu près contemporain de Gondicaire, donc né vers 385 AD. Donc, pour les générations de Siguë, Rerër, Völsë, Sigmund, Sigurd, cinq générations, plus que 405, voir 425 ans, chacun devrait avoir été 81 ans en moyenne en engendrant son fils. Et on parle 2000 ans après les temps d'Abraham, ce n'aurait plus été possible.

Il y a la lycanthropie provoqué par les ... je devrais les décrire comme "combinaisons de loups", on les mets, on devient loup, on les démet, on redevient homme ... ce qui ne fonctionne évidemment pas. Non plus qu'un homme peut devenir loutre ou dragon, d'ailleurs.

Il y a le doute comment un exilé (comme Siguë) pourrait devenir roi du pays d'accueil. Et en passant, si les Hunar et Gautar (nations de Sigmund et Siggeir) sont bien Franks et Götar, Huns et Goths, ou encore autre chose, où on retrouve les Gotlandais.

Et pourtant ... Hjalprek devrait être la version nordique de Chelperek ou Chilperik°°° - un nom retrouvé chez la dynastie burgondienne, après Gondicaire. En plus, les Burgondiens vienne d'une île danoise, Bornholm, appelé en leur honneur (Burgundarholmar plus anciennement).

Sigmund est dans le chant Beowulf crédité d'avoir tué un dragon - et d'avoir un neveu Fitela (ce qui serait Fjetlë ou Fjötlë, comme Sinfjötlë, en norrois ou suédois). Il y a aussi un Sigismund dans la postérité de Gondicaire, même un saint. Et ceci dans un milieu qui, comme pour Chilperik, ne devait pas

Les Huns et les Goths se sont côtoyés, et le royaume des Huns a eu des notables germaniques. Les Götar et les Franks semblent avoir gardé une mauvaise relation (si Hunar et Gautar étaient eux) aux temps que l'oncle de Beowulf, Hygelac ou Chlochilaicus, meurt dans une maraude contre les Franks.

Les apparitions d'Odën après la vie de Siguë, ca pourrait être question d'autres mages (prenant volontairement le rôle d'Odën après son décès, ou plus tard pris pour lui) ou de fiction.

Les générations ont pu avoir perdu quelques-uns, quand rien ne se passait - est-ce le même Siguë qui s'exile de Suède qui devient roi des Huns? Est-ce juste son petit-fils et non pas un descendant plus loitain qui a une salle autour d'un tronc d'arbre? Ou engendrer à l'âge de 81, est-ce vraiment impossible, ou juste hors de commun de nos jours?

La lycanthropie - comme des détails dans le tuerie du dragon, notamment que celui-ci serait un homme devenu tel - pourrait être d'histoires racontés pour occulter les vrais détails (je ne vais pas jurer que tout ce qu'Ulysse raconte à Nausicaä est vrai non plus). Ou encore, si un hypnotiste humain pouvait arranger qu'un sujet hypnotisé prenait un homme pour un loup (mais en hypnose très profonde, alors) ou qu'il se prenait pour un loup, mais pas les deux, un démon pourrait répandre l'illusion sur l'homme et sur l'entourage. Et cette illusion a donc pu être faite par des démons, mais les tueries étaient réelles.

Non, je ne peux pas d'emblée dire que toute cette arrière-histoire était fictive. Et pas non plus combien est réel, et comment l'irréel entre, par illusions diaboliques (possibles en contextes de magie) ou par fictions. Je pense qu'il y a une portion du réel dedans, mais moins bien documenté que la vie de Sigurd ou Sigfried, qui, elle même, n'est pas la vie la mieux documentée non plus.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
VIIe Dimanche après Pentecôte
11.VII.2021

PS, étant fatigué, j'oubliai de noter encore une consonance pourquoi ceci pourrait être correct. En Suède, Odën laissa le throne à son beau-fils Frey, quand il mourut et les païens prétendaient qu'il était ascendu à Valhalla. Pourquoi? Bon, à supposer que Thor était aussi un vrai homme, ce serait peut-être d'abord à lui que reviendrait cette succession : à mon avis il s'est pleinement répenti de sa part dans la charade, et en Terre Sainte il est devenu pêcheur à Génésareth - mieux que pécheur mortel - et ses fils sont appelés "crieurs de bœufs" en quelque réference à "fils de la tonnerre". Mais, si Siguë ne s'est pas répenti? Alors, le pouvoir à Frey, c'est à cause de l'exile de Siguë./HGL

* Egils saga Skalla-Grímssonar en est un exemple - il perd en lutte, commet un meurtre et sa mère dit qu'il mérite d'être Viking, tout ça en âge de 7 ans. Notons, Viking n'est pas une nationalité, c'est un métier - celui de marchand-pirate. Et notons, Egill est voué à Óðinn, qui y joue donc un rôle beaucoup plus profond que dans les parties sigurdiennes des Edda, même si c'est un rôle de divinité physiquement absent, comme Apollon le Delphique dans la vie de Socrate.

** Je me souvenais plutôt Odën, Thor, Lokë, mais bon ... *** En icelandais Hreiðmar. ° En icelandais Sigi. °° Un peu les mœurs d'Egill Skalla-Grímsson, non?

°°° Chelperik > Chilperik en burgondien;
Chelperik > Helprek > Hjalprek dans le norrois.
Sigmund étant Sigismund ayant perdu une syllabe.

Friday, July 9, 2021

Nicholas Roerich and Buddha Maitreya


Nicholas Roerich made a journey in Asia (India, Tibet, Mongolia, parts of China, Nepal), and in that journey, he met Buddhist monks who prediected the advent of Buddha Maitreya to 1936.

There are two leaders of notoriety who came around that year.

Mao Tse Tung, in China, and Francisco Franco, in Spain. Neither won that year, but both started campaigns that were to be victorious.

Neither of them was a Buddhist./HGL

Saturday, June 26, 2021

A Clumsy Bear Sighted at Amon Sûl


I was curious about this podcast. You see, I consider 20th C. fantasy have some very good meditations over Apocalypse - Brothers Lionheart by Astrid Lindgren, The Last Battle by C. S. Lewis, and obviously, Akallabêth by Tolkien. So, I clicked on it:

Amon Sûl podcast : 44, Akallabêth, All Roads are Now Bent
https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/amonsul/044_akallabeth_all_roads_are_now_bent


After the discussion of Dcn. Nicholas Kotar's fantasy, Fr Andrew gets to discuss pagan objects on Christian art. And the first item gets so wrong:

"the story of Sigurd and his killing of the dragon"

Is that a "pagan" image?

"like, this is a Norse pagan story"

Not exclusively Norse and not of itself pagan if you ask me.

"there is nothing Christian in that story"

In the German version of it, a few years after the killing of the dragon, approaching the killing of the dragon killer, his wife and the king's wife quarrel on the church steps of the cathedral in Worms.

Btw, according to Byzantine chroniclers, it seems the Burgundian kingdom in Worms was a Christian as in Nicene, not an Arian kingdom, unlike the later one in Dijon.

"like it is not a Christian story"

Clumsy bear spoke ... one of the reasons why I am worried we might be in the last days is, bear, four leopard heads, lion head and terrible fourth beast head seem to coalesce. And here we have clumsy bear - pretending Sigurd is a pagan story.

First of all, it is a human story. A man who was deft with monsters, but lost with ladies. The reason the king's wife is angry with him is, she had been touched by him, and he had on her view betrayed her. Norse version, they had been lovers, before he married the king's sister, German version, he had just helped the king by taking away her virginity so the witch could not resist his advances. Norse version too, he had been involved in handing her over to the king. N O T a good start for good relations, is it? Who pretends one has to be a pagan to believe this happened?

Second, there is a Norse and a German version, and by the German one, I don't allude to Wagner. In the Norse version, Nordic gods are very sidelined. Closest connection : the king's wife is a former valkyrie and under a kind of spell from Oden. In the German version, no Norse gods at all, she is just a pagan witch and none of her gods are named.

Third, in the Wagner version, the Norse gods to play a more significant role, but that is because in 19th C. Bavaria, successfully rebelling against a pagan god, being greater than a pagan god created you, is much less likely to land an author in prison as a theme, than successfully and nobly rebelling against and being greater than the actual real God. The Sigurd story on the staff church is obviously way before this version and has nothing to do with it.

Fourth, Puritans (the four leopard heads : Jews, Muslims, Puritan Protestants, Freemasons probably for fourth) are into rejecting it or secretly allowing it in closet settings (like lodges) as pagan. Their motivation is very alien to either Catholic or Orthodox views of things, so, if an Ortho takes this story as a pagan one, he is likely falling in the trap of being gullible to Puritans who have their own bad reasons to call it pagan. Like a clumsy bear.

"it's quite pagan"

I think we have already heard that ....

"pagan fatalism and heroism and all these things"

There is something fated about Sigurd, sure, but as there is about a victim, not as there is about a man himself bringing about the very opposite of what he wants to achieve, or if there is, the one fatal flaw is worldly ambition. If he hadn't wanted the gold, he wouldn't have killed the dragon for the hoard, if he hadn't wanted glory, he wouldn't have left Brunhilde (or later met her), he'd have stayed out of Worms. Is it nothing like a Christian theme that there is something fatal about love of the world? Of gold and glory? Doesn't it remind anyone of Thorin Oakenshield in a story of Tolkien, which the Amon Sûl pod cast would certainly consider as a Christian point?

And since when is heroism a purely pagan thing? I thought the Apocalypse said "et timidis [...] infernum"

"Timidis autem, et incredulis, et execratis, et homicidis, et fornicatoribus, et veneficis, et idolatris, et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure: quod est mors secunda."
[Apocalypse (Revelation) 21:8]

But perhaps his Church Slavonic version didn't have "timidis" here? Or he just missed it?

"you would have to just rewrite radically"

The story is not fiction. It may be incorrect history, but it is history. You don't re-write history just to make a better morality ... or do clumsy bears perhaps do that?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Sts John and Paul, brothers and martyrs

Romae, in monte Caelio, sanctorum Martyrum Joannis et Pauli fratrum, quorum primus erat praepositus domus, secundus primicerius Constantiae Virginis, filiae Constantini Imperatoris, et ambo postea, sub Juliano Apostata, martyrii palmam, caedente gladio, perceperunt.

Thursday, June 17, 2021

Reference Needed


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirits_in_Bondage

Lewis was twenty years old and had just returned from military service in the First World War. His tutor, William T. Kirkpatrick, encouraged him in publishing the book, although it was unusual at Lewis's age, as writers were expected to wait longer before sharing their work with the world.


Were they?/HGL

Bonnie Prince Charlie


After Culloden, Charles Edward fled over Sea of the Hebrides to Skye, as recorded in a song written 125 years later:

The Skye Boat Song - Ella Roberts
4th of August | Ella Roberts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBSqQPP4aVM


And, 22 years after that, Voltaire wrote that "Reason" had made progress, the last 15 to 20 years. I have this information from Vincent Reynouard, who spoke about the role the French themselves had in bringing about the apostasy that became a revolution. In one of the recent numbers of Rivarol, a French right wing weekly. Now, Reason in the mouth of an Enlightenment philosopher means either enlightenment philosophy or attitudes very compatible with it. Like the Gospel in the mouth of a Reformer meant Protestantism. That Catholics, and of these those not at all into Enlightenment or Protestantism, might use their reason (what God gave their heads, not what Diderot gave their encyclopedia) and read their 4 gospels (in the Bible, not the Protestant tracts) is not what these propagandistic uses of the words really refer to. Instead, "reason" is used for Enlightenment here, like "the Gospel" was used for Protestantism in the previous item, 16th C.

I am going to argue, the progress of Enlightenment, or more properly, of Endarkenment, was because the failure of Culloden demoralised the Catholic loyalties. Could it have been the Partitions of Poland? No, not the 15 to 20 years prior to 1767. The first partition was in 1772. It was more a fruit of than a cause of Endarkenment in France. Could it have been the Seven Years' War? Partly, but it started when this period mentioned by Voltaire had already begun.

Now, I would argue, for the Catholic culture, 1914 to 1918 was a worse shock than (to some) 1945. In 1945, there were clearly Catholics on the winning side too. While this was in a way so also after The Great War, they were represented by if not always freemasons, at least always secularists - except when Protestants. And I would argue, the shock of Culloden was comparable to the shock of The Great War or of the Spanish-American War.

So, if Spain was not yet out of colonies, Protestant to Masonic US was not yet ruling Cuba and Philippines (and didn't exist yet), if France and Austria had not yet both lost their Catholic monarchs and on top of that Austria in a war involving France, what was it about Culloden that could traumatise Catholics?

First, England was the Dowry of the Blessed Virgin (and remains so, as Personal Prelature Our Lady of Walsingham likes to point out). In this land, for 186 years, since 1559, Catholics had been subject to what amounted to a Protestant Inquisition, but with political motives, so as not to be formally equivalent to the older laws against heresy, which were considered retroactively as Anti-Christian persecutions. The Act of Supremacy set up a real such. The Stuarts had been trying to give Catholics tolerance, to get them out of persecutions' way. After the failure in 1745, it took another 85 years, to 1830, before Catholics were, like Slaves, emancipated.

Second, the Stuart struggle for tolerance for Catholics was the very reason why they had been bereft of their thrones, much like Sigismund Wasa of the Swedish one (but he retained the Polish one).

Third, Bonnie Prince Charles was the heir of so much other Catholic valour as well. First and foremost, I'd put John III Sobieski. Louis XVI was ponly heir to Stanislas Leszczynski, but Bonnie Prince Charlie to the Great Sobieski himself - the liberator of Vienna in 1683; and also to other men having fought the Turks or, as Jan Daniłowicz, the Tatars. Stanisław Żółkiewski had fought against Lutheran Swedes in Livonia and supported the election of a Roman Catholic Czar, Władysław IV Vasa.

Fourth, he was not chased very ruthlessly himself, but those loyal to him were. He gave the impression, a bit like Jefferson Davis trying to flee in skirts, while many Southrons were deprived of much more than the legal ownership of their slaves, disproportionately, as per Sherman's barbarism, the impression I said of being a hired shepherd fleeing from the wolf while the sheep die. But Sherman was not as bloody as the Hannoveran repression in the Highlands, and Jefferson Davis was part time worse off than Bonnie Prince Charlie. The Catholic cause in 1745 took as deep a humiliation as the Dixie cause in 1865. If St. Peter had remained that way on the Via Appia, there might not have been any Catholicism.

A fifth scandal was going to take place, but this was after the time period indicated by Voltaire, after he wrote his letter.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Antidius of Besançon
17.VI.2021

PS, Appendix B is closely based on wikipedian articles. As all persons here are presented in couples, I add an "and" and only after that add "he married when so many years old, and died at that age; she married at this age and died at so many years old" - the facts on which I have based appendix A. All the articles are reachable from that of Bonnie Prince Charles, sometimes I have had to switch to another language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward_Stuart

Appendix A - the available statistics

Let us note that the material is partly lacking. In ideal theory, we would have the statistics of 64 men (including Bonnie Prince Charles himself) and 63 women (excluding his wife whom I may save for a separate post) but in some cases ancestors were married more than once. I have included previous but not subsequent marriages, as the previous are relevant for age at first marriage. Then some are lacking so, instead of c. 70 per sex, we have 53 - 55. This basically means that each place value can have an error margin up to or close to the two neighbouring ones. However, I'll try to get a good genealogist have a look at the lacking persons.

He married, first time over, at:

14 14 17 18 18 19 19 19 19 19 20 20 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 21 22 22
14 14 17 18 18 19 19 19 19 19 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 22 22
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

22 23 23 23 23 24 24 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 27 27 27 27 28 30 30 31
22 23 23 23 23 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 25 25 27 27 27 28 30 30 31
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44

31 31 35 36 37 38 40 40 52
31 31 35 36 37 38 39 40 52
45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53

Minimum, number 1/53, 14 years
Lower quartile, 14/53, 20 years
Median, 27/53, 23 years
Higher quartile, 40/53, 27 years
Max, 53/53, 52 years

He died at:

16 21 27 27 27 30 30 35 35 38 42 44 46 46 47 47 48 48 48 48 51 52
16 21 26 27 27 30 30 32 35 37 42 44 46 46 47 47 48 48 48 48 51 52
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

52 52 53 54 54 55 56 56 56 56 56 58 58 61 65 66 66 66 67 67 67 68
52 52 53 54 54 55 55 56 56 56 56 58 58 61 65 66 66 66 67 67 67 68
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44

70 71 72 73 74 74 75 77 77 77 93
70 71 72 73 74 74 75 77 77 77 93
45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55

Minimum, 1/55, 16 years
Lower Quartile 14-15/55, 46 or 47 years
Median, 28/55, 55 years
Higher Quartile 41-42/55, 67 years
Maximum, 55/55, 93 years

She married, first time over, at:

12 12 13 14 14 14 14 15 15 15 15 15 16 16 16 16 16 16 16 16 17 17
12 12 13 14 14 14 14 15 15 15 15 15 15 16 16 16 16 16 16 16 17 17
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

17 17 17 17 17 17 17 18 18 18 18 19 19 19 20 20 20 20 20 21 22 23
17 17 17 17 17 17 17 18 18 18 18 19 19 19 19 20 20 20 20 20 22 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44

23 23 23 25 26 26 26 27 29 30
23 23 23 25 25 26 26 27 29 30
45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54

Minimum, 1/54, 12 years
Lower quartile, 14/54, 16 years
Median 27-28/54, 17 years
Higher quartile, 41/54, 20 years
Maximum, 54/54, 30 years

She died at

16 21 21 30 31 31 32 33 34 34 35 35 35 38 40 41 43 43 44 44 44 44
16 20 21 30 31 31 32 33 34 34 35 35 35 38 40 41 43 43 44 44 44 44
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

44 46 46 47 48 48 49 50 54 54 57 57 58 58 59 59 60 60 61 61 61 62
44 46 46 47 48 48 49 50 54 54 57 57 58 58 59 59 60 60 61 61 61 62
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44

62 67 69 69 70 72 74 74 74 77 80
62 67 69 69 70 72 74 74 74 77 80
45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55

Minimum, 1/55, 16 years
Lower Quartile 14-15/55, around 39 years
Median, 28/55, 48 years
Higher Quartile 41-42/55, 61 years
Maximum, 55/55, 80 years


Appendix B - biographic details, when available.

I gave name and title, sometimes only birth title prior to marriage, life dates, age at marriage and at death. When there were previous marriages, I first give the age at the relevent one, leading up to Bonnie Prince Charles.

Generation 1 - the person himself:

1 Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Sylvester Severino Maria Stuart (20 December 1720 – 30 January 1788) : he married at 52, died at 67.

Generation 2 - his parents:

2 James Francis Edward Stuart (10 June 1688 – 1 January 1766) and 3 Maria Clementina Sobieska (Polish: Maria Klementyna Sobieska;[1] 18 July 1702 – 18 January 1735) : he married at 31, died at 77;she married at 17, died at 33.

Generation 3 - his grandparents:

4 James II and VII (14 October 1633O.S. – 16 September 1701[1]) and 5 Mary of Modena (Italian: Maria Beatrice Eleonora Anna Margherita Isabella d'Este, or Maria di Modena;[1] 5 October [O.S. 25 September] 1658 – 7 May [O.S. 26 April] 1718) :he married (second marriage) at 40, died at 67;she married at 15, died at 59. He had first been married to Anne Hyde (12 March 1637 – 31 March 1671) when 27, she was 23.
6 James Louis Sobieski (full name in Polish: Jakub Ludwik Henryk Sobieski; 2 November 1667 – 19 December 1737) and 7 Hedwig Elisabeth of Neuburg (Hedwig Elisabeth Amelia; 18 July 1673 – 10 August 1722) : he married at 23, died at 70;she married at 17, died at 49.

Generation 4 - his great-grandparents:

8 Charles I (19 November 1600 – 30 January 1649)[a] and 9 Henrietta Maria (French: Henriette Marie; 25 November[1] 1609 – 10 September 1669) : he married at 25, died at 48; she married at 16, died at 59.

10 Alfonso IV d'Este (2 February 1634 – 16 July 1662) and 11 Laura Martinozzi (27 May 1639 – 19 July 1687) : he married at 21, died at 27; she married at 16, died at 48.

12 John III Sobieski (Polish: Jan III Sobieski; Lithuanian: Jonas III Sobieskis; Latin: Ioannes III Sobiscius; 17 August 1629 – 17 June 1696) and 13 Marie Casimire Louise de La Grange d'Arquien (Polish: Maria Kazimiera d’Arquien), known also by the diminutive form "Marysieńka" (28 June 1641, Nevers – 30 January 1716, Blois[1]) : he married at 36, died at 66; she married (second marriage) at 24, died at 74. She had been first married at 16, to Jan Zamoyski (1627–1665), who was 31 at the time, died at 37/38

14 Philip William of Neuburg, Elector Palatine (German: Philipp Wilhelm) (24 November 1615 – 2 September 1690) and 15 Landgravine Elisabeth Amalie of Hesse-Darmstadt (Elisabeth Amalie Magdalene; 20 March 1635 – 4 August 1709) : he married (second marriage) at 38, died at 74; she married at 18, died at 74. He had first been married at 27 to Anna Catherine Constance Vasa (Polish: Anna Katarzyna Konstancja Waza; 7 August 1619 in Warsaw – 8 October 1651 in Cologne), who was 23 at the time, died at 32.

Generation 5 - the parents of his great-grandparents:

16 James VI and I (James Charles Stuart; 19 June 1566 – 27 March 1625) and 17 Anne of Denmark (Danish: Anna; 12 December 1574 – 2 March 1619) : he married at 23, died at 58; she married at 14, died at 44.

18 Henry IV (French: Henri IV; 13 December 1553 – 14 May 1610) and 19 Marie de' Medici (French: Marie de Médicis, Italian: Maria de' Medici; 26 April 1575 – 3 July 1642) : he married (second marriage) at 47, died at 56; she married at 25, died at 67. He had first been married at 19 to Margaret of Valois (French: Marguerite, 14 May 1553 – 27 March 1615) who was also 19, died at 61.

20 Francesco I d'Este (6 September 1610 – 14 October 1658) and 21 Maria Caterina Farnese (18 February 1615 – 25 July 1646) : he married at 21, died at 48; she married at 16, died at 31.

22 Girolamo Martinozzi [no article, but born 1610] and 23 Laura Margherita Mazzarini (1608 - 9 June 1685) : he married at 24; she married at 26, died at 77.

24 Jakub Sobieski (May 5, 1590 – June 23, 1646) and 25 Teofila Zofia Sobieska, née Daniłowicz (Polish: Daniłowiczówna) (1607 – 27 November 1661) : he married at 37, died at 56; she married at 20, died at 54.

26 Henri Albert de La Grange d'Arquien, Marquis of Arquien (8 September 1613 – 24 May 1707) and 27 Françoise de La Châtre (1613-1648) : he married at 20/21?, died at 93; she married at 20/21?, died at 35.

28 Wolfgang Wilhelm von Pfalz-Neuburg (4 November 1578 in Neuburg an der Donau – 14 September 1653 in Düsseldorf) and 29 Magdalene of Bavaria (4 July 1587 – 25 September 1628) : he married at 35, died at 74; she married at 26, died at 41.

30 George II of Hesse-Darmstadt, German: Georg II von Hessen-Darmstadt (17 March 1605, in Darmstadt – 11 June 1661) and 31 Sophia Eleonore of Saxony (23 November 1609 – 2 June 1671) : he married at 22, died at 56; she married at 18, died at 61.

Generation 6 - the grandparents of his great-grandparents:

32 Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley (7 December 1545 – 10 February 1567) and 33 Mary, Queen of Scots (8 December 1542 – 8 February 1587) : he married at 20, died at 21; she married (second marriage) at 23, died at 44. She had first been married at 16 to Francis II (French: François II; 19 January 1544 – 5 December 1560) who was 14 at the time, died at 16

34 Frederick II (1 July 1534 – 4 April 1588) and 35 Sophie of Mecklenburg-Güstrow (4 September 1557 – 14 October 1631) : he married at 38, died at 53; she married at 14, died at 74.

36 Antoine of Navarre (in English, Anthony; 22 April 1518 – 17 November 1562) and 37 Jeanne d'Albret (Basque: Joana Albretekoa; Occitan: Joana de Labrit; 16 November 1528 – 9 June 1572) : he married at 30, died at 44; she married (second marriage) at 19, died at 43. (She had first been married at 12, see William of Jülich-Cleves-Berge, 114)

38 Francesco I (25 March 1541 – 19 October 1587) was the second Grand Duke of Tuscany and 39 Joanna of Austria (German Johanna von Österreich, Italian Giovanna d'Austria) (24 January 1547 – 11 April 1578) : he married at 24, died at 46; she married at 18, died at 31.

40 Alfonso III d'Este (22 October 1591 – 26 May 1644) was Duke of Modena and Reggio from 1628 to 1629 and married to 41 Isabella of Savoy (11 March 1591 – 28 August 1626) : he married at 17, died at 52; she married at 17, died at 35.

42 Ranuccio I Farnese (28 March 1569 – 5 March 1622) reigned as Duke of Parma, Piacenza and Castro from 1592. His wife was 43 Margherita Aldobrandini (29 March 1588 — 9 August 1646) : he married at 31, died at 52; she married at 12, died at 58.

44 unknown and 45 unknown.

46 Pietro Mazzarino, o Mazzarini (Mazzarino, 1576 – Roma, 4 febbraio 1654) and 47 Ortensia Bufalini (1575 – 1644) : he married at 24/25?, died at 77; she married at 25/26?, died at 69.

48 Marek Sobieski (1549/1550 – 1605) and 49 Jadwiga Snopkowska (c. 1558–1606) : he married at latest at 39/40, died at 55/56; she married at latest c. 30, died at 48.

50 Jan Daniłowicz (1570–1628) was a Polish nobleman, voivode of the Ruthenian Voivodeship and 51 Zofia Żółkiewska (c. 1590–1634) : he married (second marriage) at 35, died at 58; she married at 15, died at 44. He had been first married at ? to Katarzyna Krasicka / Barbara Krasicka??

52 Antoine de La Grange d'Arquien (vers 1560 - 9 mai 1626), ou Antoine de La Grange d'Arquian, gouverneur du Berry, marquis, seigneur d'Arquien and 53 ? (he had three wives, successively) : he married at ?, died at 66; she married at ?

54 ? 55 ?

56 Philipp Ludwig of Neuburg (2 October 1547 – 22 August 1614) was the Duke of Palatinate-Neuburg from 1569 until 1614. His wife was 57 Anna of Cleves (1552–1632) : he married at 27, died at 66; she married at 22, died at 80.

58 William V (29 September 1548 – 7 February 1626), called the Pious, (German: Wilhelm V., der Fromme, Herzog von Bayern) was Duke of Bavaria from 1579 to 1597. His was was 59 Renata of Lorraine (20 April 1544 – 22 May 1602) : he married at 19, died at 77; she married at 23, died at 58.

60 Louis V of Hesse-Darmstadt (German: Ludwig; 24 September 1577 – 27 July 1626) was the Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt from 1596 to 1626. His wife was 61 Magdalene of Brandenburg, also Magdalene and Magdalen, (7 January 1582 – 4 May 1616) : he married at 20, died at 48; she married at 16, died at 34.

62 John George I (German: Johann Georg I.) (5 March 1585 – 8 October 1656) was Elector of Saxony from 1611 to 1656. His wife was 63 Magdalene Sibylle of Prussia (31 December 1586 – 12 February 1659) : he married (second marriage) at 22, died at 71; she married at 20, died at 72. He had first been married at 19 to Sibylle Elisabeth of Württemberg (10 April 1584 - 20 January 1606) who was 20 at the time, died at 21.

Generation 7 - the great-grandparents of his great-grandparents:

64 Matthew Stewart, 4th Earl of Lennox[1] (21 September 1516 – 4 September 1571) and 65 Margaret Douglas, Countess of Lennox (7 October 1515 – 7 March 1578) : he married at 28, died at 54; she married at 29, died at 62.
66 James V (10 April 1512 – 14 December 1542) and 67 Mary of Guise (French: Marie de Guise; 22 November 1515 – 11 June 1560) : he married (second marriage) at 26, died at 30; she married (second marriage) at 23, died at 44. He had first been married at 14 to Madeleine of France or Madeleine of Valois (10 August 1520 – 7 July 1537) who was 15 at the time, died at 16. She had first been married at 19 to Louis II d'Orléans, duc de Longueville and comte de Dunois (1510 – 9 June 1537) who was 24 at the time, died at 26/27.

68 Christian III (12 August 1503 – 1 January 1559) and 69 Dorothea of Saxe-Lauenburg (9 July 1511 – 7 October 1571) : he married at 22, died at 55; she married at 14, died at 60.
70 Ulrich III, Duke of Mecklenburg or Ulrich III of Mecklenburg-Güstrow (5 March 1527 – 14 March 1603) 71 Elisabeth of Denmark (14 October 1524 – 15 October 1586) : he married at (at latest) 27, died at 76; she married (second marriage) at (at latest) 30, died at 62. She had first been married at 18 to Magnus III of Mecklenburg (July 4, 1509 in Stargard – January 28, 1550 in Bützow) who was 34 at the time, died at 40.

72 Charles de Bourbon (2 June 1489 – 25 March 1537) and 73 Françoise d'Alençon (1490 – 14 September 1550) : he married at 24, died at 47; she married (second marriage) at 23, died at 60. She had first been married at 15 to François II de Longueville (né 1478/1481 et décédé le 15 février 1513) who was 24/27 at the time, died at 32/35.
74 Henry II of Navarre (18 April 1503 – 25 May 1555) and 75 Marguerite de Navarre (French: Marguerite d'Angoulême, Marguerite d'Alençon; 11 April 1492 – 21 December 1549) : he married at 23, died at 52; she married (second marriage) at 34, died at 57. She had first been married at 17 to Charles IV of Alençon (2 September 1489 in Alençon – 11 April 1525 in Lyon) who was 20 at the time, died at 35.

76 Cosimo I de' Medici (12 June 1519 – 21 April 1574) was the second Duke of Florence from 1537 until 1569, when he became the first Grand Duke of Tuscany, a title he held until his death. He married 77 Eleanor of Toledo (Italian: Eleonora di Toledo, 11 January 1522 – 17 December 1562), born Doña Leonor Álvarez de Toledo y Osorio : he married at 20, died at 54; she married at 17, died at 40.
78 Ferdinand I (Spanish: Fernando I) (10 March 1503 – 25 July 1564) was Holy Roman Emperor from 1556, King of Bohemia, Hungary, and Croatia from 1526, and Archduke of Austria from 1521 until his death in 1564. His wife was 79 Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (23 July 1503 – 27 January 1547), sometimes known as Anna Jagellonica, was Queen of Germany, Bohemia, and Hungary and Archduchess of Austria as the wife of King Ferdinand I (later Holy Roman Emperor). He married at 18, died at 61; she married at 17, died at 43.

80 Cesare d'Este (8 October 1562 – 11 December 1628) was Duke of Modena and Reggio from 1597 until his death. His wife was 81 Virginia de' Medici (29 May 1568 – 15 January 1615) : he married at 23, died at 67; she married at 17, died at 46.
82 Charles Emmanuel I (Italian: Carlo Emanuele di Savoia; 12 January 1562 – 26 July 1630), known as the Great, was the Duke of Savoy from 1580 to 1630. His wife was 83 Catalina Micaela of Spain (Spanish: Catalina Micaela de Austria; 10 October 1567 – 6 November 1597) : he married at 22, died at 68; she married at 16, died at 30.

84 Alexander Farnese (Italian: Alessandro Farnese, Spanish: Alejandro Farnesio; 27 August 1545 – 3 December 1592) was an Italian noble and condottiero and later a general of the Spanish army, who was Duke of Parma, Piacenza and Castro from 1586 to 1592, as well as Governor of the Spanish Netherlands from 1578 to 1592. His wife, 85 Infanta Maria of Guimarães (12 August 1538 – 9 July 1577) was a Portuguese infanta, daughter of Infante Duarte, Duke of Guimarães (son of King Manuel I of Portugal), and Isabel of Braganza. He married at 20, died at 47; she married at 27, died at 38.
86 Giovanni Francesco Aldobrandini, I principe di Meldola e Sarsina (Firenze, 11 marzo 1545 – Varasdino, 18 settembre 1601), è stato un generale e diplomatico italiano. Nipote di Clemente VIII, condusse tre spedizioni contro gli Ottomani con l'esercito pontificio nel corso della Lunga Guerra. Si sposò con 87 Olimpia Aldobrandini, principessa di Meldola (28 aprile 1567 – 1637) : he married at 40, died at 56; she married at 18, died at 70.

88 - 91 unknown

92 Girolamo Mazzarino and 93 Margherita de Franchis-Passavera (unknown dates).

94 unknown 95 unknown

96 Jan Sobieski (ok. 1518–1564) and 97 Katarzyna Gdeszyńska (no article). He married at 30, died at 46
98 Jakub Snopkowski 99 Jadwiga Herburt (no article)

100 Stanisław Daniłowicz and 101 Katarzyna Tarło (c.1535 – c.1582) : she died at 47.
102 Stanisław Żółkiewski (1547 – 7 October 1620) was a Polish nobleman of the Lubicz coat of arms, magnate, military commander and a chancellor of the Polish crown of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth,[1] who took part in many campaigns of the Commonwealth and on its southern and eastern borders (article scant on marriage) and 103 Regina Herburt (no article) : he died at 73.

104 Charles de La Grange, seigneur de Montigny and 105 Louise de Rochechouart. (no articles with years)
106 & 107 several options / unknown?

108 - 111 ??

112 Count Palatine Wolfgang of Zweibrücken (German: Pfalzgraf Wolfgang von Zweibrücken; 26 September 1526 – 11 June 1569) was member of the Wittelsbach family of the Counts Palatine and Duke of Zweibrücken from 1532. His wife, 113 Anna of Hesse (26 October 1529, Kassel – 10 July 1591, Meisenheim) was a princess of Hesse by birth and marriage Countess Palatine of Zweibrücken. He married at 19, died at 42 ; she married at 15/16, died at 61.
114 William of Jülich-Cleves-Berge (William I of Cleves, William V of Jülich-Berg) (German: Wilhelm der Reiche; 28 July 1516 – 5 January 1592) was a Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (1539–1592). His wife, 115 Archduchess Maria of Austria (15 May 1531 – 11 December 1581) was the daughter of Emperor Ferdinand I from the House of Habsburg and Anna Jagiello. He married (second marriage) at 30, died at 75; she married at 15, died at 50. He had first been married at 25 to Jeanne d'Albret who was 12 at the time (for her age, see above).

116 Albert V (German: Albrecht V.) (29 February 1528 – 24 October 1579) was Duke of Bavaria from 1550 until his death. His wife, 117 Anna of Austria (7 July 1528 – 16 October 1590), a member of the Imperial House of Habsburg, was Duchess of Bavaria from 1550 until 1579, by her marriage [him]. He married at 18, died at 51; she married at 17, died at 62.
118 Francis I (French: François Ier de Lorraine) (23 August 1517 – 12 June 1545) was Duke of Lorraine from 1544–1545. His wife, 119 Christina of Denmark (Danish: Christine af Danmark; November 1521 – 10 December 1590) was a Danish princess, the younger surviving daughter of King Christian II of Denmark and Norway and Isabella of Austria. He married at 24, died at 27; she married at 19, died at 69.

120 George I of Hesse-Darmstadt (10 September 1547 – 7 February 1596) was the Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt from 1567 to 1596. His wife, 121 Magdalena of Lippe (25 February 1552, Detmold – 26 February 1587, Darmstadt) was a German noblewoman.He married at 24, died at 48; she married at 20, died at 35.
122 John George of Brandenburg (German: Johann Georg) (11 September 1525 – 8 January 1598) was a Prince-elector of the Margraviate of Brandenburg (1571–1598). His wife was 123 Elisabeth of Anhalt-Zerbst (15 September 1563 – 8 November 1607) : he married (third marriage) at 52, died at 72; she married at 14, died at 44.He had previously been married, first, at 19, to Sophie of Legnica (1525 – 6 February 1546) who was 19/20 at the time, died at 20/21; then, second, at 22, to Sabina of Brandenburg-Ansbach (12 May 1529 – 2 November 1575), who was 17 at the time, died at 46

124 Christian I of Saxony (29 October 1560 in Dresden – 25 September 1591 in Dresden) was Elector of Saxony from 1586 to 1591. He belonged to the Albertine line of the House of Wettin. His wife, 125 Sophie of Brandenburg (6 June 1568 – 7 December 1622) was Electress of Saxony by marriage to [him]. She was regent from 1591 to 1601 during the minority of their son Christian II. He married at 21, died at 30; she married at 13, died at 54.
126 Albert Frederick (German: Albrecht Friedrich; Polish: Albrecht Fryderyk; 7 May 1553 – 28 August 1618) was the Duke of Prussia, from 1568 until his death. His wife was 127 Duchess Marie Eleonore of Cleves (16 June 1550 – 1 June 1608) : he married at 20, died at 65; she married at 22/23, died at 57.

Friday, May 14, 2021

The Answer I Tried to Add


Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Another Video with Paulogia, Up to &t=634s · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : The Answer I Tried to Add

11:30 [Sean] "Give me evidence any died for it."

MARTYROLOGIUM ROMANUM : JUNIUS
http://www.liturgialatina.org/martyrologium/16.htm


29 Junii Tertio Kalendas Julii. Luna ...(left out since differring from year to year)
xxvj. C (not sure why this is here)

Romae natalis sanctorum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli, qui eodem anno eodemque die passi sunt, sub Nerone Imperatore. Horum prior, in eadem Urbe, capite ad terram verso cruci affixus, et in Vaticano juxta viam Triumphalem sepultus, totius Orbis veneratione celebratur; posterior autem, gladio animadversus, et via Ostiensi sepultus, pari honore habetur.

I translate: in Rome, the birthday of the Apostles Peter and Paul, who in the same year and on the same day suffered, under Nero Imperator. Of these the former, in the same City, head turned to the earth, fixed to a cross, and buried in Vatican by the Via Triumphalis, is celebrated by the veneration of all the Globe; but the latter, "warned" by the sword, and buried in via Ostiensis, has equal honour.

I did not know that "animadvertere" in Classical Latin "warned" could be used as euphemism for executed.

That's two.

[Found out previous had been delated when trying to post immediately following as an answer = continuation, under it]

Now, the text is in an edition that at its most basic dates from Usuard, like ninth, tenth, century. So, before you trust it, you might want to know the background to Usuard.

Here is my general speculation on how martyrologies started to be compiled in the first place:
https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2019/02/feet-and-martyrologies.html

And here are specifics on the sources of Usuard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrology_of_Usuard

Citing:

_It is preserved to us in innumerable manuscripts, of which Henri Quentin gives a partial list (Martyrologes historiques, 1908, pp. 675–7)._

_The full story of the relation of the texts was unravelled for the first time by Quentin, and the evolution of the early medieval martyrologia culminating in Usuard's work was told by Quentin in the book just cited. Usuard provided what was substantially an abridgement of Ado's Martyrology in a form better adapted for practical liturgical use. In certain points, however, Usuard reverted to a Lyonese recension of Bede's augmented Martyrology, which was attributed to the archdeacon Florus of Lyon._

Now, let's see where we can find earlier sources than Bede, Ado, Florus and their beneficiary Usuard:

_Despite its early date, the Martyrology of 411 does not stand at the head of the eastern martyrological tradition. Rather, it is related to the western tradition as represented in the Martyrologium Hieronymianum.[1] It is a translation of a Greek martyrology of about 362, which was also used as a source for the Martyrologium Hieronymianum.[3] The latest saints included date from the reign of Julian the Apostate (361–363) and may be later additions not found in the original Greek text.[1]_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrology_of_411

[I had cautiously saved both immediately previous and the first comment here before adding both as a new comment and trying to "answer" - technically so, meaningfully continue - it, with following, I found that had been deleted too, but here is this answer too:]

_"Pseudepigraphically attributed to Saint Jerome, the Martyrologium Hieronymianum contains a reference to him derived from the opening chapter of his Life of Malchus (392 AD) where Jerome states his intention to write a history of the saints and martyrs from the apostolic times: "I decided to write [a history, mentioned earlier] from the coming of the savior up to our age, that is, from the apostles, up to the dregs of our time".[1]"_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrologium_Hieronymianum

I disagree with "pseudepigraphically" but of course admit the reference.

[I actually did manage to post it at a second try, after the complaint comment, and am now commenting on, next one to time signature 15:11, see new post]

Schoelcher ...


... n'avait pas raison d'imaginer que l'abolition de l'esclavage requerrait l'athéisme. Ou l'anticléricalisme. Ou la laïcité.

Wilberforce est évoqué dans le livre de Winock ...

Les figures de proue de la gauche depuis 1789 (Français) Broché – 2 mai 2019
de COLLECTIF (Auteur), Michel WINOCK (Rédacteur adjoint)
https://www.amazon.fr/figures-proue-gauche-depuis-1789/dp/2262075999/


... comme étant connu par Victor Schœlcher.

Or, pas seulement que William Wilberforce lui-même était un Anglicane du parti évangéliste - ce n'est pas la Broad Church incroyante, mais la Low Church croyante de manière protestante et fortement dévote - mais un de ses fils, Samuel Wilberforce, va être "l'évêque"* anglicane qui opposa Huxley, s'opposa donc à la théorie de l'évolution, et une de ses filles va épouser un "prêtre"* anglicane qui se convertira à l'Église catholique en 1868. Deux autres** des fils de William, deux des frères de Samuel, sont aussi convertis à l'Église catholique, à savoir Henry William Wilberforce et Robert Isaac Wilberforce.

Par contre, Victor Schœlcher ne va pas juste avoir lutté pour abolir l'exclavage des noirs, il va aussi lutter contre les libertés des familles et de l'église. Je vais citer une page*** du sénat:

« C’est l’école primaire laïque, indique Schoelcher lors d’une conférence devant la Ligue de l’enseignement laïque en 1881, qui, en commençant la culture de l’intelligence, lui donne des bases solides et la fortifie. C’est là que les enfants apprennent à devenir de bons citoyens, connaissant leurs devoirs et leurs droits, capables de juger la valeur politique et surtout morale de ceux qui sollicitent leurs suffrages ».


Au revoir, les libertés des prêtres à enseigner, au revoir, les libertés des familles de choisir leurs écoles!

En 1878, il préside la « Société nationale des amis de l’enfance, ligue pour la propagation du lait maternel ». En 1880, il est vice-président du « Comité supérieur de protection des enfants du premier âge » créé en 1874, premier organisme spécialisé dans les domaines de l’enfance. Il signe, la même année, la proposition de loi de Roussel sur la protection des enfants abandonnés, délaissés ou maltraités pour les soustraire à l’autorité paternelle, proposition qui ne fut adoptée qu’en 1889.
En 1882, il se rend en Angleterre pour étudier la législation et les pratiques à l’égard de la protection publique apportée aux enfants abandonnés.


Au revoir les libertés parentaux, tant qu'il y aura des voisins "concernés" et préjugés contre certains parents. Le mal que l'Angleterre faisait à ses "enfants abandonnés" (et peut-être fait encore) ou qu'on fait en Suède ou Norvège aux nôtres, "délaissés" est donc un des engagements de cette saleté du Grand Orient.

Il s’associe par ailleurs à la préparation de la loi du 19 décembre 1874 qui condamne toute personne faisant travailler de manière périlleuse des enfants âgés de moins de 16 ans ou les obligeant à la mendicité et au vagabondage.


Les Kelly° ont eu de la chance de ne pas être citoyens de la France sous la IIIe République!

Somme toute, Victor Schœlcher se bat contre un esclavage, et celui n'ayant pas vu la métropole, au moins pas pendant l'Ancien Régime, mais pour un autre, plus dur. Les Wilberforce, très pieux, n'ont pas fait ça.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Lendemain de l'Ascension
14.V.2021

* Le clergé anglicane manque succession apostolique, en général. Certain, de tendance catholisante, ont récupéré par consécrations épiscopales cadeau de l'Église orthodoxe d'Antioche, mais ce n'était pas encore le cas.
** Les deux ont été "prêtres" anglicanes, Henry va rester un laïque après la conversion, Robert va mourir juste avant de recevoir une ordination en vrai prêtre catholique.
*** Sénat : Victor Schoelcher (1804-1893)
https://www.senat.fr/evenement/victor_schoelcher/engagements.html

° The Kelly Family - The Story of an Extraordinary Family
1st of May 2021 | Jeanne Østerbæk Flohr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CBBvzUzOjE

Thursday, May 13, 2021

Quelques observations de l'histoire récente, sur un numéro de Marianne


Je commence sur la page 50 du numéro 1170, 30 août - 5 septembre 2019. Ici et de la suite, il va s'agir du dossier sur extrême droite et du dossier sur le socialisme, sauf le dernier paragraphe qui aura affaire de Caroline Fourest [?].*

"aux États fascistes et à leur bilan génocidaire"


Qu'on accepte ou (malgré Gayssot) pas que le bilan du régime National-Socialiste était génocidaire, il y a d'états fascistes dont le bilan ne l'était pas :

  • l'Italie de Mussolini avant la collaboration de Salò
  • l'Autriche de Dollfuss et Schuschnigg (tant qu'il démeurait indépendant du régime NS)**
  • l'Espagne de Franco entre 1939 et 1975
  • le Portugal de Salazar entre 1932 et 1968 (c'était plutôt les anticoloniaux, comme Lumumba qui l'étaient)


et encore des états qui n'étaient pas tout à fait fascistes, mais en avaient des tendances :

  • la Pologne de Józef Piłsudski (pas le moins entre 1926 et 1939, en comptant son successeur Edward Rydz-Śmigły aussi)
  • la Finlande de Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim
  • les territoires contrôlés par Piotr Nikolaïevitch Wrangel


On peut ajouter que la Zone libre jusqu'en 1942, tout en étant fasciste, était tolérable pour Juifs et Tsigans. Le camp d'internement de Jargeau était en zone occupée, le Camp de concentration de Montreuil-Bellay l'était aussi, le Camp de Saliers est certes en Zone libre, mais quelques mois juste avant qu'elle devienne Zone sud, également occupée. Un fascisme français, s'il avait pu arriver au pouvoir sans l'occupation, aurait peut-être pu se passer de ces choses là.

Notons que le spectrum qui rejette à la fois socialisme absolu ou liberticide, et libéralisme faisant le chemin pour le capitalisme, comprend :

  • Fascismes
  • National-Socialisme
  • Social-Démocratie / "Parti Socialiste"
  • Démocrates des États-Unis
  • Démocrates Progressistes du Canada
  • CréditSocial au Canada (différent entre Québec et Colombie-Britannique)
  • Chrétiens-Démocrates
  • Royalistes.


Dont je rejette les National-Socialistes, les Social-Démocrates de Suède, les Démocrates et Démocrates-Progressistes et le Crédit social de Colombie-Britannique pour eugénisme et les premiers deux pour d'autres dérives totalitaires aussi.

Notons finalement que la mouvance "sortir de l'hétérosexualité" prétend la famille traditionnelle capitaliste, il serait plus correct de considérer cette mouvance de socialisme extrême. Si "La Société" allait directement payer les mères pour accoucher, "elle" aurait encore davantage de contrôle totalitaire sur mères et enfants que même les Aides Sociales à l'Enfance en Suède et en Norvège.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Jour de l'Ascension
13.V.2021
(mémoire de St. Robert Bellarmin)

* En fait, l'article n'était pas par Caroline Fourest, ni directement sur elle, mais sur un festival féministe - s'est-elle abstenue de celui-ci? - débuté le 24 septembre 2019 et le compte-rendu ironique (j'avais zappé le second degré en état de fatigue) n'était pas par elle mais par Samuel Piquet, et publié en un numéro ultérieur, fin septembre, je pense le 27 septembre au 3 octobre.
** Vérification que la persécution commence après l'Anschluss:

"Nach dem Anschluss Österreichs 1938 griffen Erlässe Himmlers auch in Österreich. Hier konnte einerseits auf Vorarbeiten der Polizei, wie eine (unvollständige) zentrale Zigeunerregistratur („Zigeuner-Conscription“) als auch auf Gedanken der illegalen NSDAP-Führung, etwa die „Zigeunergedenkschrift“ von Tobias Portschy zurückgegriffen werden."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porajmos#%C3%96sterreich


Notons, les Austrofascistes avaient mis Tobias Portschy en prison, et il le valait bien.

Friday, May 7, 2021

Is Vyasa Proof Anonymous Works Can Easily Get Authors?


Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Paulogia Starting Christianity Without Resurrection (OR trying To) · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: Is Vyasa Proof Anonymous Works Can Easily Get Authors?

Some scholars, in the wake of Lorenzo Valla, have doubted the ascribed authorship of this, that or sundry work.

Rhetorica ad Herennium (or whichever it was) is not Cicero. Postilla in libros geneseos is not St. Thomas Aquinas. They are anonymous works which somehow ended up being acribed to Cicero (because he was a very prestigious rhetor or orator), and to St. Thomas Aquinas, because he was a very prestigious theologian.

I am not of this school. But to give it some credit, there is in both cases some discrepancy in style from other, undisputed, more certainly known works, of Cicero and of St. Thomas. For Cicero usually does write a somewhat lavish and definitely lively prose, while Rhetorica ad Herennium (or whichever it was) is dry and technical (it is too old to be by St. Thomas Aquinas who often is dry and technical). And St. Thomas writes a somewhat more classic, somewhat less Italian, Medieval Latin, doesn't quite as much take the "ly" to substantivise glosses or phrases as the author of Postilla in libros geneseos does.

I'd solve the postilla conundrum by stating it was a youth work, from when he was in the Benedictine monastery in the Naples region (Roccasecca rings a bell*). He was not a native Latin speaker, and therefore changed his Latin later in response to more Classical Latin among the Dominicans in Paris. Also, in Paris, he was sworn to uphold Historia scholastica, by Petrus Comestor** which uses a Septuagint chronology***, while postilla uses a Vulgate / Masoretic one. That could have been used to argue, it wasn't his, but it is equally a possible indication it was a youth work by him.

For Rhetorica ad Herennium, it is possible Cicero had a friend Herennius who simply needed a text book° and therefore, for once, Cicero wrote a dry text book.

In either case, I see reasons to doubt the current doubts on the authorship.

This means, I am generally less prone than some to say anonymous books get authors as quick as you can say "Johannulus Filius Roberti".°°

Obviously, this makes me more prone than the average to accept Gospel authorships simply as anciently assigned.

So, is there any kind of fact which would have to make even me admit that authorships get assigned to anonymous works? Well, there is Vyasa, contemporary, or purported such to the events in Mahabharata. A guarantee that Mahabharata is not just roughly historical, but in fact very exact and well documented history.

As I think Mahabharata is roughly historical (again, I accept more of it than the average today Westerner), I still think it's inexact and remade a few times over. This means, I don't believe in Vyasa being author of the text we now have. And being also the contemporary he's purported to be.

There is a difference. Vedic Sanskrit is supposed to have been spoken from 1500 to 600 BC, and Classical Sanskrit from 700 BC to 1350 AD. But more importantly, all the earlier parts are supposed to have been transmitted orally, since oldest known and deciphered writing in India are the Brahmi script and Kharosthi, which arose around the time of Pericles. The action in Mahabharata includes the death of Krishna, dated to 3102 BC. While the Indus script would perhaps qualify (if the carbon dates match real dates, which I contest), it is in an unknown language, undeciphered and the texts we have are so short as to be included in seals - very much too short for texts like Mahabharata or even a short book in the Bible. Even a normal average verse in the Bible would be too long for the texts we have in Harappan.

This means, there is more room for doubt than with Cicero or St. Thomas (both are known to be roughly contemporary at least to the two disputed texts that I mentioned). And therefore obviously also more room of doubt than with the Gospellers. It's more comparable to whether Dares Phrygius really wrote Daretis Phrygii de excidio Trojae historia (or rather the original of which this is the Latin translation, if any such existed). Bc, "our" Dares sometimes differs from Homer, and placing Dares as a contemporary to the events (it seems Homer mentioned one such in Iliad song 5), is a way of pretending to have ultimate genuinity in a work only known more than thousand years after purported events.

Ultimately, Dares may be genuine, while any Christian would dispute genuinity of Vyasa, since the timeline contradicts that of Biblical history, but either of them is a very far cry even from Herennian Rhetoric or Postilla in libros geneseos, and let alone from the four Gospels, of which we have surviving fragments in less than 100 years after events, and in which author assignments are within 120 years from earliest of them being written, if correct.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Stanislas of Cracow
7.V.2021

* But it could be the castle he was born in. ** Literally : Peter the Eater. *** Without the second Cainan. ° He might have been teaching rhetoric and have wanted to refer to the greatest rhetor's knowledge, be sure not to miss anything. Quintilian's Institutiones Oratoriae would have done the job, but wasn't around yet. °° That's a rough translation of Jack Robinson.

Thursday, May 6, 2021

On se demande pourquoi la gauche en France ait été tellement anticlérical


Je viens d'entamer:

Les figures de proue de la gauche depuis 1789 (Français) Broché – 2 mai 2019
de COLLECTIF (Auteur), Michel WINOCK (Rédacteur adjoint)
https://www.amazon.fr/figures-proue-gauche-depuis-1789/dp/2262075999/


En Rivarol, je viens de reconfirmer l'impression que j'avais en lisant l'article sur Saint-Simon : Charles Maurras et son Action Française forment un Saint-Simonisme de droite. Même glorification des "industriels" comme les indispensables, entre autres.

Mais ça revient et ça revient comme un fil rouge, à part Maurras : ces gens là ont quasi tous détesté l'église. Blanqui - j'aurais préféré qu'un certain Boulevard soit resté Saint-Jacques - est un des gens qui imposent l'athéisme comme norme dans un certain type de loges (je parie Grand Orient), Michelet aurait pu être un national-libéral ou chrétien-social à part sa haine ou son mépris envers le Christianisme traditionnel (il préférait Rénaissance, Réforme, Lumières, Libéralisme, si ma mémoire ne me trompe pas), Proudhon avait au moins la clarté d'esprit (et d'anti-marxisme) de ne pas préférer le dogmatisme de Luther à celui de l'Église catholique.

Peut-être le gallicanisme avait été trop antipopulaire? Trop "on s'en foût des condamnés à mort" ... un colloque à l'Université d'Avignon avait dit (un des papers) que pour un condamné à mort avant la Révolution, confession, oui, mais pas de communion. Ce seront les Ultramontains qui réhabilitent le droit des condamnés à mort de communier, après confession. Étienne d'Orves en aura été heureux.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Miracle de St. Jean
6.V.2021

Romae sancti Joannis, Apostoli et Evangelistae, ante Portam Latinam; qui, ab Epheso, jussu Domitiani, vinctus Romam est perductus, et, judicante Senatu, ante eamdem portam in olei ferventis dolium missus, exivit inde purior et vegetior quam intravit.

Sunday, May 2, 2021

What is Going On Back in the Middle Ages?


New blog on the kid: Russia and US - Abortions · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Charlotte of Savoy married the future Lewis XI of France when she was 9 - what about her ancestry? · What is Going On Back in the Middle Ages?

I am not sure why I get 14 women and 16 men in these marriages. We can rule out the idea of gay marriage directly, even a momentary sodomy would have got people executed back then. I probably did some mistake. Not sure which one. However, I think it may give a fairly good idea of what ages people were married back then, even so.

Before looking at the statistics, please note, some ages are not canonic. Let us take a look:

I answer that, Since marriage is effected by way of a contract, it comes under the ordinance of positive law like other contracts. Consequently according to law (cap. Tua, De sponsal. impub.) it is determined that marriage may not be contracted before the age of discretion when each party is capable of sufficient deliberation about marriage, and of mutual fulfilment of the marriage debt, and that marriages otherwise contracted are void. Now for the most part this age is the fourteenth year in males and the twelfth year in women: but since the ordinances of positive law are consequent upon what happens in the majority of cases, if anyone reach the required perfection before the aforesaid age, so that nature and reason are sufficiently developed to supply the lack of age, the marriage is not annulled. Wherefore if the parties who marry before the age of puberty have marital intercourse before the aforesaid age, their marriage is none the less perpetually indissoluble.


My emphasis. It is from Tertiae Partis Supplementum, Quaestio 58, Article 5. I have cited only the corpus of the article. Now, two or three** of the following ladies married before 12 and one man (a King to be, Lewis XI), before 14.

09 10 11 12 12 12 14 15 15 16 17 19 23 24
09 10 12 12 14 14 14 15 15 16 17 19 23 24
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14

13 15 16 16 17 17 19 20 20 20 21 21 24 27 27 36
13 16 16 16 17 19 20 20 20 21 21 21 27 27 27 36
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

So, what is going on?

Were European monarchies run by people like Epstein? Were young brides married off for the fun of tormenting the female gender? Not the least.

Getting married in your teens was simply considered normal. And while they had much more tolerance than the modern world for youth on the wedding night, they had, in return, zero tolerance for abortion. Not only a single act of sodomy, as already mentioned, but also a single killing of someone not born, could land you on the road to a very quick démise. Not modern death row, where lawyers may protract the anguish by searching for signs of insanity (which might land someone out of death penalty), but quickly executed death penalty.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
IV. Sunday after Easter
2.V.2021

* Tertiae Partis Supplementum, Quaestio 58, Article 5.
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5058.htm#article5


** Some persons have two alternative or a range of alternative birth years, and in those cases, I have taken extreme age possibilities making two different lists per sex. This is typical of the Middle Ages.

Tuesday, April 27, 2021

Is there a "Planet Middle-Earth" Too?


If an entire "character arc" (not sure if you can call successive entries of a character into the plot that) in C. S. Lewis is due to a correct description of one of the four seasons ... one could of course try to find other Narnian characters that do that.

But one could also be reminded of Michael Ward's Planet Narnia. He argues that each of the seven chronicles has its main mood set by one specific classic astrological planet. It could be instructive to use publication order instead of normal reading order to show some of the connexions between successive books:

Book Planet
 
The Lion, the Witch and the WardrobeJupiter
Prince CaspianMars
The Voyage of the Dawn TreaderSun
The Silver ChairMoon
The Horse and His BoyMercury
The Magician's NephewVenus
The Last BattleSaturn


Before we go on, I'd note that when I had heard of Ward's book and site, I considered The Horse and His Boy as the Venus book and The Magician's Nephew as the Mercury book.

It so happens some parallels between The Silver Chair and Hamlet brought me to ask myself if this type of creative "inventio" was a common thing in Renaissance Drama or - as he refused to consider Elisabethan era as "Renaissance" - Elisabethan Drama. Perhaps it was. Two Gentlemen of Verona would be a Mercury comedy, since involving twins, The Merchant of Venice a Mars comedy, where iron is most prized and where Portia goes out of her female role to be a lawyer, Macbeth a Mars tragedy (where Burnam Forest walked to Dunsinane) ... Midsummer Night's Dream probably a Jove comedy (with innocent laughter at Bottom, by lords like Oberon and Theseus) ...

This brought me to a project I had entertained for a while The Hobbit along with books I to VI of the Lord of the Rings are together also seven books, like the Narniad. Note, Tolkien had stated that the "trilogy" was a convenience of publishing and that the only natural subdivision of the work was into six books.

Any one of them (but not The Hobbit) has fewer chapters than a Narnia novel, 12, 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, as I recall, but (like The Hobbit), the longest of the Narniad has 53,960 words, while The Hobbit has 95,356 words, and each of the three LotR volumes has a word count such that its half would be greater than 53,960 words. So, any of the seven books in Tolkien would be a more fleshed out version of its story.

This could allow for more weight to secondary planets. Like The Hobbit has main planet Sun, since as in Voyage of the Dawn Treader we have a dragon undone (Smaug killed vs dragoned and then undragoned Eustace), a hoard of gold (Smaug's Treasure vs Goldwater, and before that the treasure which Eustace found), people living by water (Laketown vs diverse islands), but we also find some traces of Moon imagery - as in The Silver Chair you have an underground voyage, and giants come both in Silver Chair and The Hobbit. Visibility and invisibility are obviously in a sense a reference to phases of the Moon and plays a role in The Hobbit, as Bilbo finds the Ring. Now, if The Hobbit can be considered as mainly Solar but accessorily Lunar, this will start my little list:

Book Planet Secondary Planet
 
The HobbitSunMoon
Book IMoonSun
Book IIVenusJupiter
Book IIIMarsMercury
Book IVMercurySaturn
Book VSaturnMars
Book VIJupiterVenus


In book I, the roles of Sun and Moon are reversed. The Ring is centre of the attention, as are the Ringwraiths - who come as nightly scares. There is sickness (therefore alteration, a lunar thing) in both the Silver Chair and book I, where Puddleglum gets his foot severly burned and Frodo Baggins gets stabbed by a Morgul dagger. If Hamlet is Shakespear's Lunar Tragedy, ghosts would be lunar, and we have the barrow-wight in book I. Salvations come twice in lunar form, like elves singing "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" in Sindarin or Grey-Elven, to make it even more clear (though there is a linguistic explanation for that), one of the words in the second line is "silivren" which sounds like "silver" and means "white-glittering" (which also describes the Moon) and when Glorfindel (replaced by Arwen in PJ's film) summons the waters to drown the steeds of the Black Riders. Like tides are mainly lunar.

However, there is also solar imagery - I think mainly of Tom Bombadil and perhaps also of the fireworks. Even if neither Coriakin nor Gandalf are meant as human people committing the sin of sorcery, they can be roughly speaking as literary figures considered as magicians, which would be solar, think of Aietes in Argonautica who is son of Helios. Gandalf is also most prominent in The Hobbit and in Book I.

In book II, you start with "many meetings" between hobbits and you get near the end the land of Lothlorien, with Gimli "falling in love with" Galadriel, and at the end you have steady friendship in Sam refusing to abandon Frodo. The jovian imagery is partly in Elrond, partly in Hollin - the land of hollies, which belong to Christmas, a fairly jovian and clearly jovial occasion.

In book III, as in Prince Caspian, "Burnam forest walks to Dunsinane". There is constant war with Orcs. We arrive to the riders of Rohan.

And for secondary planet, Mercury. The twin-like Pippin and Merry (there are twins in The Horse and His Boy) arrive as messangers telling a story of Saruman's treason (and you have Shasta telling that of Rabadash's in The Horse and His Boy), and we also have a contest of wizards, Saruman and Gandalf being also twin like.

In book IV, Frodo, Sam and Gollum are on a quest, and need to keep secrets (my Mercury as main planet may be weak), and as to secondary planet Saturn, they come both to Ithilian, closely modelled on Italy (the land of exile of mythological Saturn) and to Mordor, where Saturn as destructive principle would be at work, and there is poison and treason in Cirith Ungol.

In book V, while the battle of Pelennor kills off one Nazgul, there are eight to go and Theoden dies. Aragorn arrives by the Paths of the Dead (and this is therefore a place where Mercury would fit better as main than in previous) and Denethor commits actual treason in despair. At the end of the book, they expect to be defeated by Sauron, if they just survived Morannon, there would be another thing coming ... and obviously, battles open and end, so we have Mars too as secondary.

In book VI, "Jupiter brings" the happy end, the victory, the righting of wrongs elsewhere, like in the Shire ... and "Venus comes with" fertility. All Saturnine things are dispelled. And as King Planet, "Jove brings" coronation to Elessar, while Venus adds marriage with Arwen - as well as Sam Gamgee's with Rosie Cotton.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Peter Canisius
27.IV.2021

PS, next day, before checking reactions in the mail: 1) of course another thing unites The Voyage of the Dawn Treader and The Hobbit as solar, since both are voyages to the East, and similarily fireworks unite book I and The Silver Chair as lunar (fireworks being lights in the night); 2) I think Mercury would fit book V very well "too", since Pippin's message, since Theoden's arrival in time, since heralds meeting each other at the end, and perhaps above all since Aragorn goes the paths of the dead (Hermes psychopompos) and both he and Denethor use Palantirs, while book IV is a lunar book, the vaccillating moods of Gollum, the passage in the dark, the "Italian" landscape being called Ithilien, literally Moon-land in Sindarin. Not forgetting phases of the Moon are carefully noted. Solutions : a) I was simply assigning planet pairs wrong, as the pairs possible are not 7 but 7*6; b) we deal with planet triplets; c) Moon and Mercury are very pervasive with Tolkien and spill over into other books than their own. I would however probably stick with a or b./HGL

PPS, I think I'd go for planet triplets - Venus would be in book I too, since involving the marriage of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry./HGL

Tuesday, April 20, 2021

Charlotte of Savoy married the future Lewis XI of France when she was 9 - what about her ancestry?


New blog on the kid: Russia and US - Abortions · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Charlotte of Savoy married the future Lewis XI of France when she was 9 - what about her ancestry? · What is Going On Back in the Middle Ages?

On 11 March 1443, when Charlotte was just over a year old, she was betrothed to Frederick of Saxony (28 August 1439- 23 December 1451), eldest son of Frederick II, Elector of Saxony.[1] For reasons unknown, the betrothal was annulled. Less than eight years later on 14 February 1451, Charlotte married Louis, Dauphin of France (future Louis XI), eldest son of Charles VII of France and Marie of Anjou.[3] The bride was nine years old and the groom twenty-seven. The marriage, which had taken place without the consent of the French king,[3] was Louis' second; his first spouse, Margaret of Scotland, had died childless in 1445. Upon her marriage, Charlotte became Dauphine of France.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_of_Savoy
Note 3 refers to Richard Vaughan, Philip the Good, (The Boydell Press, 2010), 353.

This is normally speaking against the Roman Catholic legislation of minimum 14 for the groom and 12 for the bride. One can presume they were not assuming marital life for some years and that canonists regarded this as a betrothal.

This would have been exceptional, so what about her ancestry?

Anne Lusigan of Cyprus ... Sosa Stradonitz 3.

On 9 August 1431 was signed the marriage contract between Anne and Amadeus, Prince of Piamonte and titular Prince of Achaea, eldest surviving son and heir of Amadeus VIII, Duke of Savoy (who later became Antipope Felix V); however, the Prince died only twenty days later, on 29 August.


She was 12, going on 13.

Mary of Burgundy, Duchess of Savoy ... Sosa Stradonitz 5.

Their marriage was contracted in the year of her birth, on 11 November 1386 in Sluis, Zeeland; they married by proxy 30 October 1393 in Chalon-sur-Saône and in person at Arras May 1401, when Mary was ca. 15 years old.


In fact, years have been proposed from 1393 to 1403. French wiki gives her age at marriage as 7, but the date of intercourse starting as 18, however gives this qualification:

D'autres années ont pu être avancées pour la date du mariage. Ainsi Samuel Guichenon, dans son Histoire généalogique de la Royale Maison de Savoie (1660), donne dans un premier temps 13933 puis quelques pages plus loin le mois de mai 14014. L'historien Bernard Demotz dans son ouvrage sur Le comté de Savoie (2000) donne quant à lui 1403 comme année du mariage. Cette dernière date correspondant aux 10 années écoulées et son déplacement en Savoie avec sa majorité.


Her oldest child is born 1405, when she was 19.

Charlotte of Bourbon, Queen of Cyprus ... Sosa Stradonitz 7.

On 25 August 1411, at Saint Sophia's Cathedral in Nicosia, Cyprus, Charlotte married as his second wife, King Janus of Cyprus and Armenia and titular King of Jerusalem.


At 23.

Bonne of Berry ... Sosa Stradonitz 9.

Her first marriage was to Amadeus VII, Count of Savoy. Their marriage contract is dated 7 May 1372 and they married on 18 January 1377, but she wouldn't arrive in Savoy until 1381.


Depending on birth year, she would have been 11 or 14. Arrival in Savoy, 16 or 19.

Margaret III, Countess of Flanders ... Sosa Stradonitz 11.

In 1355, Margaret of Flanders married Philip of Rouvres, grandson and heir of Odo IV, Duke of Burgundy.


She would have been five. As he died when she was 11, she had no issue with him. In canonic view, this would have been only a betrothal. Her second marriage took place when she was 19.

Helvis of Brunswick-Grubenhagen ... Sosa Stradonitz 13.

On 1 May 1365, when she was 12 years old, she married James de Lusignan, the third son of King Hugh IV of Cyprus and Alix of Ibelin, who three years later became her stepmother. James was 19 years her senior. As they were cousins, a Papal dispensation was required for their marriage.


Note, not for her marrying at 12, not for marrying someone 19 years her senior. But for being cousins.

Catherine of Vendôme ... Sosa Stradonitz 15.

Fille du comte Jean VI de Vendôme et de Jeanne de Ponthieu, elle épouse en 1364 Jean de Bourbon, comte de La Marche


Ten, if as English wiki says she was born in 1350, again the early years of the marriage were not consummated. She has her first son at about 16 and this means by about 15 the consummation would have been done. French wiki states she was born "vers 1350".

Bonne of Bourbon ... Sosa Stradonitz 17.

She married Amadeus in September 1355 in Paris. Immediately after their wedding, her husband had to return to his army, still engaged in the Hundred Years' War.


She would have been 14.

Joan of Armagnac ... Sosa Stradonitz 19.

She became Duchess of Berry by her marriage to John, Duke of Berry in 1360.[1]


So, 16.

Bonne of Luxembourg ... Sosa Stradonitz 21.

Jutta was married to John, Duke of Normandy on 28 July 1332[4] at the Collegiate Church of Notre-Dame, Melun. She was 17 years old, and the future king was 13. Her name Jutta (or Guta), translatable into English as Good (in the feminine case), was changed by the time of her marriage to Bonne (French) or Bona (Latin).


Margaret of Brabant, Countess of Flanders ... Sosa Stradonitz 23.

In 1347 she married Louis II of Flanders, who was then sixteen years old and already count of Flanders.


24. I think this was the oldest bride in this list.

Alix of Ibelin ... Sosa Stradonitz 25.

On 17 September 1318, the Chronicle of Amadi recorded that Alix had married Hugh de Lusignan, son and heir of Guy de Lusignan, Constable of Cyprus.


She was 12 or 14. However, her oldest child was born 7 years later.

Helisia of Dampierre ... Sosa Stradonitz 27. No article in English wiki.

Joan of Châtillon ... Sosa Stradonitz 29. No article in English wiki.

Joan of Ponthieu, Dame of Epernon ... Sosa Stradonitz 31.

On an unknown date sometime before 1351, Jeanne married Jean VI de Vendôme, Count of Vendôme and of Castres, Seigneur de Lézingnan-en-Narbonnois, and de Brétencourt of the House of Montoire.


She was born before 1336 ... with minimal "before"s we get 1335 to 1350, fifteen years. And her first one comes in 1351.

What about the men?

Lewis, Duke of Savoy ... Sosa Stradonitz 2.

On 1 November 1433 (or 12 February 1434), at Chambéry, he married Princess Anne of Cyprus,[1] an heiress of the Kingdom of Cyprus and the defunct Kingdom of Jerusalem.


Amadeus VIII, Duke of Savoy ... Sosa Stradonitz 4.

Amédée de Savoie est marié à l'âge de 10 ans, à Chalon, le 30 octobre 1393, par sa grand-mère, Bonne de Bourbon, à Marie de Bourgogne, âgée de 7 ans.


His oldest child is from 8 years later, so add 7 to each, he was 17.

Janus of Cyprus ... Sosa Stradonitz 6.

Sometime after January 1400 he married Anglesia Visconti (died 1439), daughter of Bernabò Visconti, Lord of Milan, but the marriage was annulled and they divorced in 1408 or 1407/1409 without issue.


1375 - so he was 24 / 25.

In 1411, he married Charlotte de Bourbon (born 1388 – died of the plague on 15 January 1422 and buried in Nicosia),[2] daughter of John I, Count of La Marche and Catherine of Vendôme, at Nicosia; they had six children:


He was 36.

Amadeus VII, Count of Savoy ... Sosa Stradonitz 8.

Amédée, comte de Bresse, épouse en 1377, à Paris, le 18 janvier 1377, Bonne de Berry, fille de Jean de France, duc de Berry et duc d'Auvergne, et de Jeanne d'Armagnac, fille du comte Jean Ier.


He was 16, going on 17.

Philip the Bold ... Sosa Stradonitz 10.

Philip the Bold married the future Countess Margaret III of Flanders on 19 June 1369


He was 27 and a half, nearly.

James I of Cyprus ... Sosa Stradonitz 12.

James married his kinswoman Helvis (Heloise) of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (1353 – January 15/25, 1421) (daughter of Philip of Brunswick, Constable of Jerusalem and Helisia of Dampierre) in 1365.


He was 21.

John I, Count of La Marche ... Sosa Stradonitz 14.

On 28 September 1364, he married Catherine of Vendôme, countess of Vendôme (d. 1412) and daughter of John VI, Count of Vendôme.


He was 20.

Amadeus VI, Count of Savoy ... Sosa Stradonitz 16.

He was married in 1355 in Paris to Bonne of Bourbon,[23] the sister-in-law of Charles V of France.


He was 21.

John, Duke of Berry ... Sosa Stradonitz 18.

John of Berry had the following issue by his first wife, Joanna of Armagnac (1346–1387), whom he married in 1360


20 or perhaps given his late birth in 1340 more probably 19.

John II of France ... Sosa Stradonitz 20.

John reached the age of majority, 13 years and one day, on 27 April 1332, and received overlordship of the duchy of Normandy, as well as the counties of Anjou and Maine.[1] The wedding was celebrated on 28 July at the church of Notre-Dame in Melun in the presence of six thousand guests.


He was, as mentioned, a few months older than 13. It can be mentioned that his first son is born 5 and a half years later.

Lodewyk van Male ... Sosa Stradonitz 22.

Lodewyk trouwde in 1347 mè Margaretha van Broabant, twidde dochter van Jan III van Broabant en Marie van Évreux.


He would have been more likely 16 than 17, as he was born late in 1330.

Hugh IV of Cyprus ... Sosa Stradonitz 24.

His second marriage took place on 18 June 1318, to Alix of Ibelin (1304/1306 – after 6 August 1386 and buried at Saint Dominic's, Nicosia),[1] daughter of Guy of Ibelin by his wife and cousin Isabelle d'Ibelin.


As his birthyear is somewhat unclear, he was 24 to 27 years old.

Philip of Brunswick-Grubenhagen ... Sosa Stradonitz 26.

He married firstly Helisia de Dampierre and had a daughter:

Helvis of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (1353 ...


Let's say he was married previous year, 1352 minus 1332, makes him 20. The article on Helisia de Dampierre is missing, we don't know how old she was (from wiki, at least for now).

James I, Count of La Marche ... Sosa Stradonitz 28.

In 1335, he married Jeanne of Châtillon,[4] daughter of Hugh of Châtillon, Lord of Leuze.


He may have been 16 or perhaps only 15, going on 16.

... Sosa Stradonitz 30.

In 1342, he married Jeanne de Ponthieu,


But the article has no birthyear, so the Spanish one has:

Juan VI de Vendôme (circa 1321/1324-febrero en 1364), condé de Vendôme y Castres (1354-1364) de la Cámara de Montoire


He was in other words between 18 (or 17, going on 18) and 21.

Just in case someone on the French right would pretend wiki is biassed, one can throw in that King St. Louis IX arguably married when he was sth like 18 and a half and his bride something like just 12. Unlike some above, this respected the papal ban on child marriages, which I think was then fairly recent and perhaps provoked by the ill-fated marriage of a daughter of John Lackland to the Scottish king at age 11, and his taking up relations on the spot. She left him and lived a secluded life, escorted back to England by her brother Henry III. But the marriage at 12 to 14 (when St. Louis was 18 and a half to 20 and a half, before his majority at 21) of Marguérite de Provence was not ill-fated, nor illegal according to this papal legislation.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Sts. Sulpicius and Servilian,
Martyrs of Rome
20.IV.2021

9.VIII.143140.XIX.14301411
24.IX.141824.IX.14181388
=16.X.1223
 
1.XI.143332.X.143318.I.13771318
24.II.141324.II.14131362/13651304/1306
=8.VIII.2014/1114/12
 
18.I.137749.XII.137619.VI.13691365
24.II.136024.II.136017.I.13421334
=25.X.162.V.2721

There are two ways of writing children's books


If you ask experts (including simply experts on curricula, like teachers) what children a certain age are likely to need to learn, and you know you can speak so children that age can understand you and you write a book to suit that need, well, you will very likely write a book that is fun for that age, but not quite as fun in an older age when the lesson is already well learned.

If you write books to suit your taste, including the taste you had back at a certain age as perceived in retrospect, you are likely to write works of art, which continue to enchant well after your "age back then" is reached by the readers, just as it did for you.

I don't think many Swedes would still as adults, unless when reading to children, admit to loving Alfons Åberg and spending hours reading him. I think very many Swedes would still admit loving and spending hours on Ronya or Mio or Brothers Lionheart by Astrid Lindgren (apart from pro-death ending of the last book mentioned, this includes me).

I think if you put a riddle into a childrens book, that the child does not solve and the adult does solve at 52, when looking back, this means your books fall into the latter category.

Now, look first at this paragraph on Autumn (a season some of you may better know as Fall). The compare the comparisons I give.

After a Summer sometimes too hot, Autumn comes as a liberation. With red hue and black trunks, with umbrellas and scarves, but still with lots of gifts: you huddle around the fire for a hot tea, you enjoy the honey recently harvested from the bees, all the fruits make the meals richer. As you sit by the fire and hear the wind lull you to sleep, you drowse and wake up to torrential rain, reminding of some back in spring, but sadder, since Autumn leads you on to Winter, and nearly betrays you to him ... but yet saves you, though not himself : Winter will take away the ruddy freshness and leave only grey and cold and his house totally disshevelled.


Now, look at Tumnus. Look hard at a line by Queen Susan to him:

Oh, Tumnus!


Do you see another name here? Well, Autumnus pronounced by an Englishman. He is the Roman god or divinity of Autumn. There is another Roman divinity with a name ending in Tumnus : Vertumnus. So, if in a Spanish book two characters, father and son, are called Vergilio and Oberon Toño, that is a fair parallel to the old man on the wall and his son in the leanchair.

Getting back to the line by Queen Susan, in The Horse and His Boy, Tumnus did liberate her from the excessive heat of Calormene "Summer". "After a Summer sometimes too hot, Autumn comes as a liberation."

Now, back to The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe. Mr. Tumnus has black hair and horns and cloven hooves and is hairy all over the legs, but his skin is red. "With red hue and black trunks," as I said. He has a scarf and an umbrella and lots of gifts. "[W]ith umbrellas and scarves, but still with lots of gifts," I said. And his hospitality to Lucy matches "you huddle around the fire for a hot tea, you enjoy the honey recently harvested from the bees, all the fruits make the meals richer."

He takes up a flute and plays until Lucy falls asleep: "As you sit by the fire and hear the wind lull you to sleep, you drowse," I just said.

Lucy wakes up as the faun cries so as to leave a real puddle on the floor and Mr. Tumnus admits being such a bad faun, he was leading Lucy on to the White Witch. He admits his father would never have done such a thing. And I just said: "and wake up to torrential rain, reminding of some back in spring, but sadder, since Autumn leads you on to Winter, and nearly betrays you to him." Obviously the other Mr. Tumnus, the father, Vertumnus, would not have done such a thing, he would have been leading you on to Summer instead.

Tumnus saves Lucy by walking her back to the lamp post, and Autumn's harvests save us from starvation in Winter.

Mr. Tumnus pays a great price, his house is sacked, it is found cold, and he is turned to stone in the home of the White Witch. And as I just said "but yet saves you, though not himself : Winter will take away the ruddy freshness and leave only grey and cold and his house totally disshevelled."

Tumnus will of course be un-stoned when Aslan breathes on him, but he will not be taking an active part after his martyrdom. Why? As Spring has come and then Summer, Autumn is alive in his principles but not active in his own right. Since all processes leading up to a rich Autumn are already active from Spring on and throughout Summer. And next time Tumnus appears, and actively so, is of course for The Horse and His Boy, which is inside the last chapter of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, as delivering Queen Susan from what could very well be considered as "excessive Summer heat".

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Sts. Sulpicius and Servilian
Martyrs of Rome
20.IV.2021

Romae sanctorum Martyrum Sulpicii et Serviliani, qui, praedicatione et miraculis beatae Domitillae Virginis ad Christi fidem conversi, ambo, cum nollent idolis immolare, in persecutione Trajani, a Praefecto Urbis Aniano sunt capite caesi.

A badly needed shoutout to this video, which did the blunder of identifying Tumnus with Vertumnus, the "god of seasonal change" when in fact Vertumnus was the god specifically of spring:

Tumnus Isn't Who You Think | Narnia Lore | Into the Wardrobe
18th April 2021 | Into the Wardrobe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9QQva-5scU