What State Was Longest?

David to Captivity, for II Kings 1 (II Samuel 1), the Haydock Bible with the Ussher chronology says:

Year of the World 2949, Year before Christ 1055.

And for IV Kings 24:8 it is:

Year of the World 3405, Year before Christ 599.

For IV Kings 25:9 it is:

Year of the World 3416, Year before Christ 558

1055 - 558 = 497 years.
3416 - 2949 = 467 years.

For II Paralipomenon 36:22 I find:

Year of the World 3468, A.C. 536.

For Matthew 2:1 I find:

Year of the World 4000, being four years before the common account called Anno Domini.[A.D., in the year of the Lord]; Luke ii. 7.

This was close enough to the time when Herod the Great died and when Judaea lost sovereignty, went from status of Protectorate (or Auxiliarii) to that of Province.

4000 - 3468 = 532
536 - 4 = 532

Judaea became a Roman province in AD 6, the province of this name lasted to 132, but under other names, with other borders, Judaea was under Rome and Constantinople up to the Conquest by Omar, with a brief and sad (for Christians at least) interlude with the invasion of Khosrhoës II.

The Byzantine army was eventually defeated at the Battle of Fahl on 23 January 635.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Levant

635 - 6 = 629
634 - 6 = 628

The Roman era (unless we arbitrarily disconnect Byzantines) was actually longer than either the Davidic kingdom or the Returners from Cyrus.

Famously, there was a Crusader period after this:

1099 - 635 = 464 years.

Arab Muslim Period shorter than any of the three above.

1291 - 1099 = 192 years.

Kingdom of Jerusalem shorter than any of the three first.

The Mamluks?

1517 - 1250 = 267 years.

Ottomans?

1922 - 1517 = 405 years.

Mandate?

1948 - 1922 = 26 years.

State of Israel?

2024 - 1948 = 76 years.

I would say the longest régime (after Abraham's times) was the Roman one, and the longest part of that, the régime was Christian.

Indigenous people were Christians in this time. Christian Palestinians descend to a high degree from them. And they from the Davidic Kingdom, which was fulfilled in AD 33, at Pentecost. The Catholic Church has an even longer presence here than the Roman Empire.

2024 - 33 = 1991 years.

She's sovereign, even if she has no armies. Through her the wars between Judah and Ephraim ceased, forever. Through her also God's word of peace went out to all nations. The prophecies were fulfilled.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Sts Abdon and Sennen
30.VII.2024

Romae sanctorum Martyrum Abdon et Sennen Persarum, qui, sub Decio, catenis alligati et Romam adducti, pro Christi fide prius plumbatis caesi sunt, deinde gladio interfecti.

Seven Female Lineages, Seventyone Women, High or Classic Middle Ages

I'll be linking more systematically to the wikis I quote. We speak of the period that English with German and Swedish tends to consider as "High Middle Ages" = the peak of the wave, so to speak, and which French considers as "Moyen âge classique" which means Classic Middle Ages.

A, First Lineage:

I Agatha (before 1030 – after 1070) Nothing is known of Agatha's early life, and what speculation has appeared is inextricably linked to the contentious issue of Agatha's paternity, one of the unresolved questions of medieval genealogy. As the birth of her children is speculatively placed at around the year 1045, her own birth was probably before about 1030. -> II, XVI

II Saint Margaret of Scotland (c. 1045 – 16 November 1093) After she and her family fled north, Margaret married Malcolm III of Scotland by the end of 1070. -> III, V

III Matilda of Scotland (originally christened Edith,[a] 1080 – 1 May 1118), Edith and Henry were married on 11 November 1100 at Westminster Abbey by Archbishop Anselm of Canterbury. -> IV

IV Empress Matilda (c. 7 February 1102 – 10 September 1167)

The couple met at Liège before travelling to Utrecht where, on 10 April, they became officially betrothed.[19] On 25 July Matilda was crowned German queen in a ceremony at Mainz.[20] There was a considerable age gap between the couple, as Matilda was only eight years old while Henry was 24.[21] After the betrothal she was placed into the custody of Bruno, the archbishop of Trier, who was tasked with educating her in German culture, manners and government.[22][23][nb 5] In January 1114 Matilda was ready to be married to Henry, and their wedding was held at the city of Worms amid extravagant celebrations.[24] Matilda now entered public life in Germany, complete with her own household.[25]

[So, "married at 8" = "betrothal at 8, married later" and in this case at 12 minus some)

V Mary of Scotland, Countess of Boulogne (1082–1116), Matilda finally left the monastery in 1100 to marry King Henry I of England. ... [It is unclear whether this reposes on some kind of misunderstanding, so Mary married some time between 1096 and 1104, as far as I'm concerned.] -> VI

VI Matilda I, Countess of Boulogne Matilda (c.1105 – 3 May 1152) was Countess of Boulogne in her own right from 1125 and Queen of England from the accession of her husband, Stephen, in 1135 until her death in 1152 -> VII

VII Marie I, Countess of Boulogne Marie I or Mary (1136 – 25 July 1182 in St Austrebert, Montreuil, France) was the suo jure Countess of Boulogne from 1159 to 1170. She also held the post of Abbess of Romsey for five years until her abduction by Matthew of Alsace, who forced her to marry him. She is one of several possible identities of the author Marie de France. -> VIII, X

VIII Ida, Countess of Boulogne Ida of Boulogne (c. 1160 – 1216) was suo jure Countess of Boulogne from 1173 until her death. ... Her father continued to rule until his death in 1173, when she succeeded. Upon the advice of her uncle, Philip I, Count of Flanders, she married first in 1181, to Gerard of Guelders, but he died in the same year. -> IX

IX Matilda II, Countess of Boulogne Mahaut or Matilda II of Boulogne (also known as Mathilde, Maud de Dammartin; 1202 – January 1259) was Countess of Boulogne in her own right and Queen of Portugal by marriage to King Afonso III from 1248 until their divorce in 1253. ... In 1223, Matilda married her first husband, Philippe Hurepel, Count of Clermont-en-Beauvais, a younger, arguably illegitimate son of King Philip II of France.

X Matilda of Boulogne, Duchess of Brabant Matilda of Boulogne (1170 – 16 October 1210) was the younger daughter of Matthew, Count of Boulogne, and Marie I, Countess of Boulogne.[1] Matilda became Duchess of Brabant by her marriage to Henry I, Duke of Brabant.[2] Matilda married Henry I, Duke of Brabant, in 1180.

[Given birth years of children, the couple "waited" pretty long after the formal marriage / betrothal] -> XI, XII, XIII

XI Maria of Brabant, Holy Roman Empress Maria of Brabant (c. 1190 – May/June 1260), a member of the House of Reginar, was Holy Roman Empress from 1214 until 1215 as the second and last wife of the Welf emperor Otto IV. ... Otto and Maria of Brabant got married on 19 May 1214 in Maastricht.

XII Adelaide of Brabant (also known as Alix of Brabant, Aleyde de Brabant, Alix of Louvain or Adelheid van Brabant), born around 1190, died in 1265, was Countess of Boulogne from 1262 to 1265, the third reigning Countess in succession. She was the daughter of Henry I, Duke of Brabant and Matilda of Boulogne. She first married Arnoul III, Count of Rieneck and Looz (died 1221), around 1206, without issue. / Widowed, she remarried ...

XIII Matilda of Brabant, Countess of Holland, also called Machteld (c. 1200 – 22 December 1267), was Countess of Holland by marriage to Floris IV, Count of Holland. She was regent of Holland and Zeeland in 1234–1235. ... She married Floris IV, Count of Holland[2] on 6 December 1224. -> XIV, XV

XIV Adelaide of Holland (Dutch: Aleide (Aleidis); c. 1230 – buried 9 April 1284), was a Countess of Hainaut by marriage to John I, Count of Hainaut. ... On 9 October 1246, Adelaide married John I of Avesnes, Count of Hainaut.

XV Margaret of Holland, Countess of Henneberg (1234 – 26 March 1276) was a Dutch countess, known for a famous medieval legend. She was a daughter of Count Floris IV of Holland and his wife, Matilda of Brabant. Margaret married on Pentecost of 1249 to Count Herman I of Henneberg-Coburg. This marriage had political background, because Hermann had hoped to be elected King of the Germans earlier in 1246, but had lost to Margaret's brother William II. In an attempt to strengthen his influence in Germany, William had arranged a marriage between his sister and a German count.

XVI Cristina, daughter of Edward the Exile and Agatha, was the sister of Edgar Ætheling and Saint Margaret of Scotland, born in the 1040s. Cristina's nieces Edith and Mary were sent to Romsey Abbey, near Southampton, in 1086 when she was abbess. The date of her death is not known, but she does not appear to have given evidence to the conclave, suggesting she died sometime before 1100. Additional evidence of her death includes the transfer before 1093 of her nieces to Wilton Abbey for further education and the appointment of Eadgyth as the next abbess of Romsey Abbey.

[No statistics possible]

B, Second Lineage:

XVII Gisela of Burgundy (c.  955 – 21 July 1007), a member of the royal Elder House of Welf, was Duchess of Bavaria from about 972 to 976 and again from 985 to 995, by her marriage with Duke Henry the Wrangler. She was the mother of Emperor Henry II. About 965 Gisela was betrothed to Otto's nephew Henry the Wrangler, who then ruled as Duke of Bavaria; the couple married some time before 972.[2] Emperor Otto I died in 973 and was succeeded by his son Otto II. The 18-year-old had to cope with the Burgundian relations of his Bavarian cousin, forming a considerable power bloc in the southern domains of his realm. -> XVIII

XVIII Gisela of Hungary (or Gisele, Gizella and of Bavaria; c. 985 – 7 May 1065) was the first queen consort of Hungary by marriage to Stephen I of Hungary, and the sister of Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor. She has been beatified by the Catholic Church. ... She married King Stephen I of Hungary in 996[1] as a part of Hungary's policy of opening up to the West.

C, Third Lineage:

XIX Estrid of the Obotrites (c. 979 – 1035) was Queen of Sweden in the Viking age, a West Slavic princess married to Olof Skötkonung, King of Sweden c. 1000–1022.[1] She was the mother of King Anund Jacob of Sweden and the Kievan Rus' saint and grand princess Ingegerd Olofsdotter.[2] -> XX

XX Ingegerd Olofsdotter of Sweden, also known as Irene or Anna (1001 – 10 February 1050), was a Swedish princess and the grand princess of Kiev from 1019 to 1050 as the wife of Yaroslav the Wise. She was the daughter of the Swedish king Olof Skötkonung by his wife Estrid of the Obotrites. She is venerated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church. ... Olof Skötkonung subsequently arranged for the marriage of Princess Ingegerd to the powerful Grand Prince Yaroslav I the Wise of Novgorod with whom Sweden had a flourishing trade relationship. The marriage took place in 1019. -> XXI, XXII

XXI Anastasia of Kiev (Russian: Анастасия Ярославна; Ukrainian: Анастасія Ярославна; c. 1023 – 1074/1094) was Queen of Hungary by marriage to King Andrew the White. ... Around 1038 Anastasia married Duke Andrew of Hungary,[1] who had settled down in Kiev after his father Vazul took part in a failed assassination attempt aimed at King Stephen I of Hungary -> XXIII

XXII Anne of Kiev or Anna Yaroslavna[a] (c. 1030 – 1075) was a princess of Kievan Rus who became Queen of France in 1051 upon marrying King Henry I. She ruled the kingdom as regent during the minority of their son Philip I from Henry's death in 1060 until her controversial marriage to Count Ralph IV of Valois. Anne founded the Abbey of St. Vincent at Senlis.

Anne and Henry were married for nine years and had three sons: Philip, Robert (who died young), and Hugh. Anne is often credited with introducing the Greek name "Philip" to royal families of Western Europe, as she bestowed it on her first son; she might have imported this Greek name from her Eastern Orthodox culture.[5] There may also have been a daughter, Emma, perhaps born in 1055; it is unknown if she married or when she died.[2] Henry and Anne of Kiev are additionally said to have been the parents of the beatified figure Edigna.[8]

On whom:

According to legend, Edigna was a daughter of Henry I of France and Anne of Kiev,[1] and was born c. 1055.[2] In 1074, at the age of 19,[3] she fled to Bavaria on a farmer's bullock cart to escape an arranged marriage.[1] The farmer stopped in Puch, Fürstenfeldbruck, where a rooster in the cart crowed and a bell rang. Edigna took this as a sign that she should leave the cart. She remained in Puch until her death on 26 February, 1109, living as a hermit in a hollowed-out linden tree and revered by the people as a miracle worker.[1] She did not reveal her royal background, but it was discovered after her death.[3] When she died, holy oil flowed from the tree, but it dried up when attempts were made to sell it.[1]

Edigna has been venerated since her death, and regarded as the patroness saint of Puch.[1]

This would make it likely that Anne of Kiev introduced the idea of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary (before her held in the East but mostly not in the Augustinian West), to Paris, to Senlis, to Puch in Bavaria. Except that Militant Thomist argues the West was not all that against the Immaculate Conception in the first place. On to her niece:

XXIII Adelaide of Hungary (c. 1040 – 27 January 1062)[1] was the only daughter of King Andrew I of Hungary.[2] It has generally been assumed that her mother was Anastasia of Kiev,[3] but it has been hypothesised that Adelaide could be the result of Andrew I and a different wife, due to the idea that Yaroslav the Wise wouldn't marry his daughter to an exiled dynast, who didn't appear to have a strong claim to the throne, for which he wouldn't gain serious support for until 1045, five years after Adelaide is thought to be born. [4] She was the second wife of Vratislav II of Bohemia, whom she married in 1058. -> XXIV

XXIV Judith of Bohemia (c. 1056/58 – 25 December 1086), also known as Judith Přemyslid, was a member of the Přemyslid dynasty and duchess of Poland by marriage. She was a daughter of Duke Vratislaus II of Bohemia and Adelaide of Hungary, and was married to Władysław Herman.[1][2] ... Around 1080, Judith married Duke Władysław Herman of Poland to solidify the recently established Bohemian-Polish alliance.

D, Fourth Lineage:

XXV Gertrude of Saxony (c. 1030 – August 4, 1113), also known as Gertrude Billung, was a countess of Holland by marriage to Floris I, Count of Holland, and countess of Flanders by marriage to Robert I, Count of Flanders. She was regent of Holland in 1061-1067 during the minority of her son Dirk V, and regent of Flanders during the absence of her spouse in 1086–1093. ... In c. 1050, she married Floris I, Count of Holland (c. 1017 – June 28, 1061).[2] Upon the death of her spouse in 1061, her son Dirk V became Count of Holland.[2] Since he was a minor, she became regent. -> XXVI, XXVIII

XXVI Bertha of Holland (c. 1055 – 15 October 1094), also known as Berthe or Bertha of Frisia and erroneously as Berta or Bertrada, was Queen of France from 1072 until 1092, as the first wife of King Philip I of France. Bertha's marriage to the king in 1072 was a result of peace negotiations between him and her stepfather, Count Robert I of Flanders. -> XVII

XXVII Constance of France (1078 – 14 September 1125/1126) was Countess of Troyes from her first marriage and Princess of Antioch from her second marriage. She was regent during the minority of her son. Constance was the eldest of five children and was the only daughter from her father's first marriage. Her brother was Louis VI of France. Constance was the daughter of King Philip I of France and Bertha of Holland.[1] Between 1093 and 1095, Phillip I arranged for his daughter, Constance, to marry Hugh, Count of Troyes and Champagne.

XXVIII Gertrude of Flanders (c. 1070–1117[1]), was a Countess of Louvain and Landgravine of Brabant by marriage to Henry III, Count of Leuven, and a Duchess of Lorraine by marriage to Theodoric II, Duke of Lorraine.[2] At the time the duchy was the upper Lorraine, since 959 separated from the duchy of Lower Lorraine. ... Gertrude married firstly Henry III, Count of Leuven (died wounded in a tournament in Tournai in 1095), of the House of Reginar. He was count of Louvain from 1078 to 1095 and landgrave of Brabant from 1085. ... They had four children, probably all daughters (born about 1092-1096) -> XXIX

XXIX Adelaide of Leuven (died c. 1158) was the wife of Simon I, Duke of Lorraine (1076–1138), in what is now France. She was the daughter of Henry III of Leuven and his wife Gertrude of Flanders. After the death of her husband, Adelaide retired to Tart Abbey. -> XXX

[1094 is her latest date of birth, since her father died 1095 and she had a younger full sister Gertrude, while the wikipedians state these siblings were born 1092 to 1096, I'll assume that 1084 is the terminus a quo, a time at which her mother was 14. For her marriage, I'll cite the French wiki on her husband]

Simon Ier de Lorraine Il épouse en 1112 ou 1113 Adélaïde de Louvain, fille d'Henri III de Louvain et de Gertrude de Flandre, laquelle est la belle-mère de Simon

[In fact, it's improbable she was born as early as 1084, since that would make her marriage undertaken at 29, not just a record high age for a lady so far, but also hardly the best prelude for giving birth to eight children.]

XXX Agatha of Lorraine (c. 1120 – April 1147) was the wife of her relative Reginald III, Count of Burgundy.[1][2] She was the daughter of Simon I, Duke of Lorraine[3] and his wife Adelaide of Leuven.

[Wiki on her husband]

About 1130, Reginald married Agatha, daughter of Duke Simon I of Lorraine.[4] They had a daughter, Beatrice I.[5] -> XXI

XXXI Beatrice I (1143 – 15 November 1184) was countess of Burgundy from 1148 until her death, and was also Holy Roman Empress by marriage to Frederick Barbarossa. She was crowned empress by Antipope Paschal III in Rome on 1 August 1167, and as Queen of Burgundy at Vienne in August 1178.

The wedding between Beatrice and Frederick took on 9 June 1156 at Würzburg.

E, Fifth Lineage:

XXXII Bertrade of Montfort (c. 1070 – 14 February 1117), also known by other names, was a Norman noble from the House of Montfort. She was countess of Anjou (1089–1092) through her first marriage to Fulk the Rude and then queen consort of France (1092–1108) through her initially bigamous marriage to Philip I. Condemned in her era's ecclesiastical histories, she played a role in the popularization of pigache footwear and founded a daughter house of Fontevraud Abbey at Hautes-Bruyeres.

Shortly after their 1089 marriage,[3] Bertrade bore Fulk's son and heir, Fulk V. -> XXXIII

XXXIII Cecile of France (1097 – 1145) was a French princess, daughter of Philip I of France and Bertrade de Montfort. Her first marriage was arranged while Bohemond I of Antioch was visiting the French court seeking support against Alexios I Komnenos. She sailed for Antioch at the end of 1106 and became Lady of Tarsus and Mamistra, in Cilician Armenia. Cecile married firstly (late 1106) Tancred, Prince of Galilee, Regent of Antioch, who succeeded in 1111 as Prince of Antioch.

F, Sixth Lineage:

XXXIV Gisela of Burgundy (1075–1135) was a Countess consort of Savoy[1] and a Marchioness consort of Montferrat. Gisela was the spouse of Humbert II, Count of Savoy and later of Rainier of Montferrat whom she married after Humbert's death. Gisela was the daughter of William I, Count of Burgundy[2] and his consort Stephanie.

[French wiki]

Vers 1090, elle épouse Humbert II, sixième comte en Maurienne, également seigneur du Bugey, d'Aoste et du Chablais et marquis de Suse4,5,6. -> XXXV

XXXV Adelaide of Maurienne, also called Alix or Adele[1] (1092 – 18 November 1154) was Queen of France as the second wife of King Louis VI (1115–1137). ... Adelaide became the second wife of King Louis VI of France, whom she married on 3 August 1115 in Paris, France. -> XXXVI

XXXVI Constance of France (c. 1126 – c. 1190) was a French princess of the House of Capet, the only daughter of Louis VI of France and his wife Adélaide de Maurienne. Amongst her siblings was Louis VII, who succeeded their father in 1137.

In 1140, Constance married Eustace IV, Count of Boulogne, son of Stephen, King of England.[1] The couple were married for thirteen years until Eustace's death, they had no children.

The following year, Constance was married to Raymond V, Count of Toulouse. -> XXXVII

XXXVII French wiki Adélaïde de Toulouse est née à Toulouse vers 1158 et morte en 1200.

La jeune mariée est belle, aux dires des troubadours et son parti est particulièrement avantageux pour Roger II. Le mariage a lieu en 1171.

G, Seventh Lineage:

XXXVIII Dangereuse de l'Isle Bouchard (Poitevin: Dangerosa; 1079 – 1151) was the daughter of Bartholomew of l'Isle Bouchard and his wife Gerberge de Blaison. She was the maternal grandmother of the celebrated Eleanor of Aquitaine. She was also mistress to her granddaughters' paternal grandfather, William IX, Duke of Aquitaine. As the mistress of William the Troubadour, she was known as La Maubergeonne for the tower he built for her at his castle in Poitiers. -> XXXIX

Dangereuse ("Dangerous") was a sobriquet she received for her seductiveness; her baptismal name may have been Amauberge or Amal(a)berge.

Dangereuse married Aimery I, Viscount of Châtellerault, at an unknown date. She advised her husband to donate property to the priory of Saint-Denis-de-Vaux in a charter dated 1109, which means they were married before this point.

Dangereuse and Aimery were married for around seven years before she left her husband to become mistress to Duke William IX; this became an infamous liaison.

Humiliated, in 1116, Philippa [her rival] chose to retire to the Abbey of Fontevrault.

[She was married at the latest at 30, but with 8 children, that is unlikely. I'll set her as married 25 to 29 years old. Wait ... her oldest son must have been born 1098 or 1099, so she was married c. 1097 or 1098, 16 to 19 years old]

XXXIX Aénor of Châtellerault (also known as Aénor de Rochefoucauld), Duchess of Aquitaine, (born c. 1103 in Châtellerault, died March 1130 in Talmont) was the mother of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who became one of the most powerful women of her generation in Europe. [May have been counted twice by mistake] -> XL, XLI

XL Eleanor of Aquitaine (French: Aliénor d'Aquitaine, Éléonore d'Aquitaine, Occitan: Alienòr d'Aquitània, pronounced [aljeˈnɔɾ dakiˈtanjɔ], Latin: Helienordis, Alienorde or Alianor;[a] c. 1124 – 1 April 1204) was Duchess of Aquitaine from 1137 to 1204, Queen of France from 1137 to 1152 as the wife of King Louis VII,[4] and Queen of England from 1154 to 1189 as the wife of King Henry II. As the heiress of the House of Poitiers, which controlled much of southwestern France, she was one of the wealthiest and most powerful women in Western Europe during the High Middle Ages. -> XLIV, L, LX, LXII, LXIX

XLI Petronilla of Aquitaine (c. 1125 – c.1151) was a French noble. She was the second daughter of William X of Aquitaine and Aenor of Châtellerault. She was the elder sister of William Aigret and the younger sister of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was Queen consort of France, later England. She is variously called Alix (or Aelith in Occitan) and Petronilla; she typically went by Alix after her marriage, while Petronilla seems to have been her childhood name (she is referred to as such in her father's will). -> XLII

XLII Elisabeth (French: Élisabeth), also known as Isabelle Mabille (1143 – Arras, 28 March 1183), was ruling Countess of Vermandois from 1168 to 1183, and also Countess of Flanders by marriage to Philip I, Count of Flanders. She was the eldest daughter of Ralph I, Count of Vermandois and his second spouse, Petronilla of Aquitaine. -> XLIII

XLIII Eleanor of Vermandois (French: Éléonore or Aliéonor or Aénor de Vermandois, 1148 or 1149 – 19 or 21 June 1213) was reigning countess of Vermandois and Valois in 1182–1213 and by marriage countess of Ostervant, Nevers, Auxerre, Boulogne and Beaumont.

XLIV Marie of France (1145 – 11 March 1198) was a Capetian princess who became Countess of Champagne by her marriage to Henry I of Champagne. She served as regent of the County of Champagne three times: during Henry I's absence from 1179-1181; during the minority of their son Henry II from 1181–1187; and during Henry II's absence from 1190-1197. The daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France, she was the sister of Alice of France and the half-sister of: William IX, Henry the Young King, Richard I, Geoffrey of Brittany, Matilda of England, Eleanor of England, Joan of England, John of England; Margaret of France, Alys of France, Agnes of France, Philip II of France; and the stepdaughter of Henry II of England, and Constance of Castile, and Adela of Champagne.

In 1153, Marie was betrothed to Henry of Champagne by her father Louis.[4] These betrothals were arranged based on the intervention of Bernard of Clairvaux, as reported in the contemporary chronicle of Radulfus Niger. After her betrothal, Marie was sent to live with the Viscountess Elizabeth of Mareuil-sy-Aÿ and then to the abbey of Avenay in Champagne for her Latin-based education. In 1159, Marie married Henry I, Count of Champagne. -> XLV, XLVI

XLV Marie of Champagne (c. 1174 – 29 August 1204[1]) was the first Latin Empress of Constantinople by marriage to Emperor Baldwin I. She acted as regent of Flanders during the absence of her spouse from 1202 until 1204. / On 6 January 1186, Marie and Baldwin were married at Valenciennes. -> XLVII, XLVIII

XLVI Scholastique of Champagne (also Scholastica;[1] 1172–1219) was the daughter of Marie of France and Count Henry I of Champagne.

XLVII Joan, often called Joan of Constantinople (c. 1199 – 5 December 1244), ruled as Countess of Flanders and Hainaut from 1205 (at the age of six[1]) until her death. She was the elder daughter of Baldwin IX, Count of Flanders and Hainaut, and Marie of Champagne.[2] / In 1211 Enguerrand III of Coucy offered the King the sum of 50,000 livres to marry Joan, while his brother Thomas would marry Margaret. However, the Flemish nobility was hostile to the project. Matilda of Portugal, widow of Joan's granduncle Philip I of Flanders, then offered her nephew, Ferdinand of Portugal, as Joan's husband for the same amount. The marriage was celebrated in Paris in January 1212.[3][4][5] Ferdinand thus became Joan's co-ruler.

XLVIII Margaret, often called Margaret of Constantinople (1202[1] – 10 February 1280), ruled as Countess of Flanders during 1244–1278 and Countess of Hainaut during 1244–1253 and 1257–1280. She was the younger daughter of Baldwin IX, Count of Flanders and Hainaut, and Marie of Champagne.[2] / In the presence of a significant number of bourgeois of Hainaut, she declared she did not want another husband than Bouchard, and before 23 July 1212 they were married.[4] Margaret was then twelve years old, while her new husband was twenty-eight. -> IL

IL Joan of Dampierre (c. 1225–1245/1246) was the eldest daughter of Margaret II, Countess of Flanders, and William II of Dampierre. / In 1239, her mother arranged her to be wed to count Hugh III of Rethel. Margaret stipulated that her dowry should be returned in case the count died without giving Joan a child. When this indeed happened, the money was refunded.

L Alix of France (July/August 1150 – 1197/1198) was countess consort of Blois by marriage to Theobald. She served as regent of Blois during Theobald's absence from in 1190–1191, and during the minority of their son Louis from 1191 until 1197. She was the daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France. / In 1164, at age 14, Alix married Theobald, [2] who had previously attempted to abduct Alix's mother to force her into a marriage with him. Her sister Marie married Theobald's brother Henry I, Count of Champagne. -> LI, LVIII

LI Margaret of Blois (French: Marguerite; died 1230) was suo jure Countess of Blois in France from 1218 to 1230. From 1190 to 1200, she was the countess consort of the County of Burgundy and then regent for her daughters from 1200 until 1208.[1] -> LII, LIII, LVII

LII Joan I (1191–1205), also called Joanna of Hohenstaufen, was ruling Countess of Burgundy from 1200 to 1205. She was daughter of Otto I, Count of Burgundy, and Margaret, Countess of Blois. [Died at 14, unmarried]

LIII Beatrice II (1193 – 7 May 1231) reigned as Countess Palatine of Burgundy from 1205 until her death.[1][2] She was a member of the Swabian Hohenstaufen dynasty, the daughter of Count Otto I of Burgundy and Margaret, Countess of Blois,[3] thereby a granddaughter of Emperor Frederick Barbarossa. / In 1208 she married Duke Otto I, Duke of Merania. -> LIV, LV, LVI

LIV Agnes of Merania (c. 1215 – 7 January 1263) was a member of the House of Andechs and an Austrian royal consort.[1] By her two marriages, she was Duchess of Austria (AEIOU!) from 1230 until 1243 and Duchess of Carinthia from 1256 until her death. / In 1229 she married Frederick of Babenberg, son and heir of Duke Leopold VI of Austria. Her husband, who was known as "the Quarrelsome",[2] had just divorced his first wife Eudokia Laskarina ("Sophia"), a daughter of the Byzantine emperor Theodore I Laskaris, due to childlessness. He succeeded his father as Austrian duke in 1230. Based on the dowry of his wife including large Andechs estates in the March of Carniola and the Windic March, he also began to call himself a "Lord of Carniola" from 1232.

LV Beatrix of Merania (1210 – 9 February 1271) was a princess of Merania by birth, and the Countess of Weimar-Orlamünde by marriage. [She married, but at unknown date]

LVI Adelaide of Merania (Adélaïde or Alice, Alix – died 8 March 1279, Évian) was reigning Countess of Burgundy from 1248 until her death. She was also Countess of Savoy and Bresse through her marriage in 1267 to Count Philip I of Savoy. [Birthdate unknown to English wikipedians, but see this about her in French wiki] Naissance: 1218

LVII Mary, Countess of Blois, also known as Marie of Avesnes, (1200–1241) was countess of Blois from 1230 to 1241. She was the daughter of Walter of Avesnes and Margaret of Blois.[1] In 1226, Mary married Hugh I of Châtillon, a count from Châtillon-sur-Marne, son of Gaucher III of Châtillon and Elisabeth of Saint-Pol.

LVIII Isabelle of Blois or Elizabeth of Blois (died 1248 or 1249) was the lady of Amboise by marriage and from 1218 until her death the countess of Chartres in her own right. / Isabelle (Elizabeth) was born probably before 1180. / Isabelle was married twice. In 1190, she was married to Sulpice III of Amboise [fr]. -> LIX

LIX Matilda of Amboise (Mahaut, Mathilde d'Amboise; c. 1200 ‒ 12 May 1256) was the Countess of Chartres 1248-1256. She was the daughter of Sulpice III of Amboise and Isabella of Blois.

LX Matilda of England (June 1156 — June/July 1189) was an English princess of the House of Plantagenet[a] and by marriage Duchess consort of Saxony and Bavaria from 1168 until her husband's deposition in 1180.

LXI Matilda of Saxony, or Richenza of Saxony (1172-13 January 1209/10) was the Countess of Perche followed by the title of Lady of Coucy from the German Welf dynasty. She was also the niece of Richard the Lionheart. / Matilda married Geoffrey III, Count of Perche in 1189.

LXII Eleanor of England (Spanish: Leonor; c. 1161[1] – 31 October 1214[2][3]), was Queen of Castile and Toledo[4] as wife of Alfonso VIII of Castile.[5][6] She was the sixth child and second daughter of Henry II, King of England, and Eleanor of Aquitaine.[7][8] She served as Regent of Castile during the minority of her son Henry I for 26 days between the death of her spouse and her own death in 1214.[9] -> LXIII, LXVI, LXVIII, LXX

LXIII Berengaria (Castilian: Berenguela), nicknamed the Great (Castilian: la Grande) (1179 or 1180 – 8 November 1246), was Queen of Castile[1] for a brief time in 1217, and Queen of León from 1197 to 1204 as the second wife of King Alfonso IX. -> LXIV

[Berengaria's first engagement was agreed in 1187 when her hand was sought by Conrad, the fifth child of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa.[10] The next year, the marriage contract was signed in Seligenstadt, including a dowry of 42000 Maravedí.[10] Conrad then marched to Castile, where in Carrión the engagement was celebrated and Conrad was knighted[11] making him a servant of his new lord, Alfonso. Berengaria's claim to the throne was based in part on documentation in the treaty and marriage contract,[12][13] which specified that she would inherit the kingdom after her father or any childless brothers who might come along.[12] Conrad would only be allowed to co-rule as her spouse, and Castile would not become part of the Empire.[10] Furthermore, he was not allowed to claim the throne for himself in case of Alfonso's death, but was obliged to defend and protect the kingdom until Berengaria arrived.[14] The treaty also documented traditional rights and obligations between the future sovereign and the nobility.[15]

The marriage was not consummated because Berengaria was less than 10 years old.[16] Conrad and Berengaria never saw each other again.[17] By 1191, Berengaria requested an annulment of the engagement from the pope, influenced, no doubt, by third parties such as her grandmother Duchess Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was not interested in having a Hohenstaufen as a neighbor to her French fiefdoms.[17] Those fears were neutralized when Conrad was assassinated in 1196.[17]]

Berengaria married King Alfonso IX of León, her first cousin once removed, in Valladolid in 1197.

LXIV Berengaria of León[a] (1204 – 12 April 1237) was the third wife but only empress consort of John of Brienne, Latin Emperor of Constantinople. She was a daughter of Alfonso IX of León and Berengaria of Castile.[1] She was a younger sister of Ferdinand III of Castile and Alfonso of Molina. -> LXV

LXV Marie of Brienne (c. 1224–1275) was Latin Empress as the wife of Baldwin II of Courtenay. She served as regent during the absence of Baldwin II twice: in 1237–1239, and in 1243–1257. / Their marriage took place in 1234. The bride was about ten years old, the groom seventeen. Their marriage was recorded in the chronicle of Alberic of Trois-Fontaines. By her marriage, Marie became the junior co-empress of the Latin Empire, the senior one being her mother.

LXVI Urraca of Castile (1186/28 May 1187 – 3 November 1220) was a daughter of Alfonso VIII of Castile[1] and Eleanor of England.[2] Her maternal grandparents were Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine. -> LXVII

LXVII Eleanor of Portugal (Portuguese: Leonor [liuˈnoɾ]; c. 1211 – 28 August 1231) was a Portuguese infanta, the only daughter of Afonso II of Portugal and Urraca of Castile, Queen of Portugal.[1] Eleanor was Queen of Denmark by marriage to Valdemar the Young, son of Valdemar II, in 1229.[2]

LXVIII Blanche of Castile (Spanish: Blanca de Castilla; 4 March 1188 – 27 November 1252) was Queen of France by marriage to Louis VIII. She acted as regent twice during the reign of her son, Louis IX: during his minority from 1226 until 1234, and during his absence from 1248 until 1252.

Blanche was twelve years of age, and Louis was only a year older, by the time the marriage treaty was finally signed. King John ceded the fiefs of Issoudun and Graçay as a dowry. The marriage was celebrated 23 May 1200, at Port-Mort on the right bank of the Seine, in John's domains, as those of Philip lay under an interdict.[5][6] Blanche bore her first child in 1205.[3] -> LXIX

LXIX Isabelle of France (March 1225 – 23 February 1270) was a French princess and daughter of Louis VIII of France and Blanche of Castile. She was a younger sister of King Louis IX of France (Saint Louis) and of Alfonso, Count of Poitiers, and an older sister of King Charles I of Sicily. In 1256, she founded the nunnery of Longchamp in part of the Forest of Rouvray (now called the Bois de Boulogne), west of Paris. Isabelle consecrated her virginity and her entire life to God alone. She is honored as a saint by the Franciscan Order. Her feast day is 22 February.

LXX Eleanor of Castile[1] (1200[2][3]—1244) was Queen of Aragon by her marriage to King James I of Aragon. / Eleanor was the daughter of Alfonso VIII of Castile and Eleanor of England. In 1221 at Ágreda, Eleanor married King James I of Aragon; she was nineteen and he was fourteen.

[Like here niece above, she died in a monastery.]

LXXI Joan of England (October 1165 – 4 September 1199) was by marriage Queen of Sicily and Countess of Toulouse. She was the seventh child of King Henry II of England and Duchess Eleanor of Aquitaine. From her birth, she was destined to make a political and royal marriage. She married William II of Sicily and later Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, two very important and powerful figures in the political landscape of Medieval Europe.

... After a hazardous voyage, Joan arrived safely in Palermo, and on 13 February 1177, she married King William and was crowned Queen of Sicily at Palermo Cathedral.

Deaths at:
14 20 21 22 26 28 28 30 31 33 33 33 34 34 37 38 38
13 18 19 20 23 25 25 28 29 32 32 33 33 33 35 37 37
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
40 40 41 41 41 42 43 44 44 45 46 46 46 47 47 48 48 48 48 48 48
38 39 39 40 40 41 41 41 41 43 43 44 44 45 45 45 46 46 46 46 46
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38
48 48 51 53 53 53 55 56 57 57 57 60 60 61 61 61 62
47 47 48 50 51 52 52 53 54 55 55 56 59 59 60 60 61
39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55
64 65 65 66 67 68 71 71 72 75 76 78 81 81 84
62 62 63 64 65 66 66 69 69 71 73 77 78 79 81
56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70

Died after 59, 17 to 21 / 70, 24.286 to 30 %.

Middle two quartiles died 40 to 61 or 38 to 60.

Married at:
09 09 10 10 11 11 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 13 13 14
09 09 09 09 09 10 10 10 10 11 11 11 11 11 11 12 12
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
14 14 14 14 14 15 15 15 15 15 15 16 16 16 16 17 17 17 18 18 18
12 12 12 12 12 12 13 13 13 13 13 13 14 14 14 14 14 15 15 15 15
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38
18 18 19 19 19 19 20 20 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 21 21
16 16 16 16 16 17 17 17 17 18 19 19 19 19 19 19 19
39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 56
22 22 22 23 24 25 25 25 25 26 29
19 20 20 20 22 22 23 23 24 25 25
57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67

Married before 15 : 22 to 34 / 67, 32.836 to 50.746 %.

Middle two quartiles married, 14 to 20 or 12 to 19.

It was nearly eery, how added stat after added stat, the middle of deaths stats was 48 higher and 46 lower count, and the middle of marriages was 17 higher count and 14 lower count.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Xth LD after Pentecost
28.VII.2024

Swedish is NOT a Slavic Language

Linking to a professional translator's view of a question:

Why are there so many Slavic words/words of Slavic origin in the Swedish language?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-so-many-Slavic-words-words-of-Slavic-origin-in-the-Swedish-language/answer/Mats-Andersson-16

Parutions en 1934 (selon la wikipédie)

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Parutions en 1934 (selon la wikipédie) · Correspondence de Hans Georg Lundahl : Non-réponse par SNE · New blog on the kid : On essaie de me donner des astuces sur la publication

1934 en littérature : Parutions
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_en_litt%C3%A9rature#Parutions

Essais		Romans
Gaston Bachelard, Le Nouvel Esprit scientifique (avril)		Auteurs francophones
Henri Bergson, La Pensée et le Mouvant (juin)		Louis Aragon, Les Cloches de Bâle (août).
Charles de Gaulle, Vers l'armée de métier		Marcel Aymé, Les Contes du chat perché (décembre).
René Le Senne, Obstacle et valeur, Paris, F. Aubier		Jacques Chardonne, Les Destinées sentimentales.
Ruth Benedict, Patterns of Culture		Gabriel Chevallier, Clochemerle
Maud Bodkin, Archetypal Patterns of Poetry: Psychological Studies of Imagination		Daniel-Rops, Mort, où est ta victoire ?
René Martial, La Race française		Pierre Drieu la Rochelle, La Comédie de Charleroi (février).
Paul Otlet, Traité de documentation		Jacques de Fromont, Les Mutilés
France Pastorelli, Servitude et grandeur de la maladie		Jean Giono, Le Chant du monde.
Poésie		Pierre Mac Orlan, La Nuit de Zeebruges (juin)
René Char, Le Marteau sans maître.		Henry de Montherlant, Les Célibataires (juillet).
Jeunesse		Marguerite Yourcenar :
Naissance de Oui-Oui (Noddy en version originale), personnage fictif de livres pour enfants, créé par Enid Blyton et illustré par Harmsen van der Beek.		Denier du rêve.
		La mort conduit l'attelage.
		Georges Duhamel : Le Jardin des bêtes sauvages.
		Auteurs traduits
		Wacław Berent (polonais), Nurt (Tendance).
		Agatha Christie (anglaise), Le Crime de l'Orient-Express.
		William Faulkner (américain), Tandis que j’agonise.

Que m'indique ce tableau ?

1) Que les auteurs francophones d'alors étaient souvent noirs, qu'il s'agisse de Pierre Drieu la Rochelle, ou l'humour noir que me semble contenir Clochemerle. Notons, pour ce dernier, je n'ai pas encore lu davantage que la première et la dernière page, et je suis dans les jours parfois un peu noir d'humeur. Une certaine infestation peut déjà être morte, elle n'est pas forcément encore éliminée.
2) Que le nombre de parutions par an a augmenté depuis.
3) Que certains imaginent (le livre était placé dans la laverie où on savait que j'allais aller) que j'aurais besoin de transporter par ici un objet des armoiries de ce village.
4) Que le genre "essai" n'est pas inconnu.
5) Que pas mal des essais sont en France des monographies. Pour rappel, la collection de courtes essais existe aussi, et si un essayiste écrit souvent sur un thème, construire une monographie-collection n'est pas impossible.

Si je tombais sur un éditeur, déjà existant ou voulant débuter, on pourrait regler une certaine question sans de dérober les armoiries de Clochemerle, car j'aurais un peu plus vite un appart, sur le marché privé.

Voici d'ailleurs un peu d'inspiration pour les éditeurs en herbe :

Syndicat national de l'édition : Le B-A-BA du métier d’éditeur
https://www.sne.fr/le-b-a-ba/

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Jacques le Grand
25.VII.2024

Sancti Jacobi Apostoli, qui exstitit beati Joannis Evangelistae frater; et, prope festum Paschae ab Herode Agrippa decollatus, primus ex Apostolis coronam martyiii percepit. Ejus sacra ossa, ab Hierosolymis ad Hispanias hoc die translata, et in ultimis earum finibus apud Gallaeciam recondita, celeberrima illarum gentium veneratione, et frequenti Christianorum conctirsu, religionis et voti causa illuc adeuntium, pie coluntur.

I'm Not the First to Ask

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Tolk Lang QQ · Tolkienophobia · As Tolk Lang QQ Keep Dropping In · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: I'm Not the First to Ask · New blog on the kid: Since I'm Being Pestered by Tolkienophobes ...

AI actually had an answer. This means that others have answered before I asked, and before I intend to give my own answer.

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://poe.com/chat/3gv3kdllz7j4j7xsc4o

There are a few key reasons why people often question whether J.R.R. Tolkien truly created the languages featured in his writings:

1. Linguistic complexity: The languages Tolkien invented, such as Elvish languages like Quenya and Sindarin, are remarkably complex and sophisticated, with detailed grammatical structures, vocabularies, and writing systems. This level of linguistic complexity is impressive and leads some to doubt that a single person could have created them.
2. Resemblance to real-world languages: While Tolkien's languages are unique, they do share some similarities with natural human languages, both in terms of grammar and sound. This has led some to speculate that Tolkien may have drawn inspiration from or adapted existing languages, rather than constructing them entirely from scratch.
3. Tolkien's background: Tolkien was a philologist and professor of linguistics, and his deep knowledge and passion for languages likely contributed to the richness of his invented tongues. However, some question whether even his expertise could account for the full depth and breadth of the languages he created.
4. Lack of complete documentation: Tolkien never fully documented or published the entirety of his linguistic work, leaving some gaps and uncertainties that fuel speculation about their origins.

However, the overwhelming scholarly consensus is that Tolkien did indeed create these languages himself, drawing upon his extensive linguistic knowledge and creative talents. While he may have been influenced by or incorporated elements of real-world languages, the depth and coherence of his invented tongues are a testament to his linguistic genius and imagination.

So, what do I make of it.

1. and 3. cancel out. If Tolkien was a philologist, he was amply equipped to imitate what in real languages is a teamwork over 20—40 generations since the language was a different one. As well as features we have not spotted the origin of. A very simple case: Tolkien knew Latin, so he knew a language could have different cases. When he knew that, would he really need a team to work out the cases for Quenya? He knew French had lost cases since Latin and Welsh had lost cases since Old Brythonic, what's so mysterious about a man using that knowledge to assume Sindarin had lost cases?

"Yeah, but keeping it in the head, all of this at the same time!"

Yes, he was interested in languages. I'm not presuming you could do it. You shouldn't presume I could keep all the soccer rules in the head while watching a game of soccer (that's why I rarely do so, I think I did so exactly twice in my life, twice as often as going to horse races). I'm more impressed by the fact that Tolkien could probably have understood a rugby match and a soccer match perfectly, which probably contributes more than a little to his battle scenes!

But as watching soccer is a more common hobby than learning languages to read old literature, I am too well aware that I would make myself ridiculous with conspiracy theories of Tolkien basing all battle scenes on real soccer games or underground live role playing battles.

Obviously, the AI was not exactly able to discern whether reasons given on the internet were very intelligent.

2. is admitted, but any natural language also is a mixture of traits and vocabulary shared with different other ones.

4. is irrelevant. Suppose Tolkien had been member of a secret society, which had spoken Quenya for generations, that would explain why we have gaps in the information, but it would not explain why Tolkien was able to tinker so much with Quenya. If it had been the case, Quenya would already have been fixed, and Tolkien couldn't have tinkered with it. Here is an example from Fauskanger, between 1930's Qenya and Lord of the Rings style Quenya:

On one point only does the Qenya Lexicon provide extensive information about a grammatical feature: the formation of the past tense of verbs. In well over 300 cases the past tense is listed alongside the more basic form of the verb. We find all the types we are familiar with from later Quenya, such as past tenses formed with the ending -ne (e.g. sesta- "compare", pa.t. sestane), with nasal infixion (e.g. kap- "jump", pa.t. kampe) or by lengthening the stem-vowel and adding -e (e.g. mel- "to love", pa.t. méle; see pp. 82, 45, 60). But there is also a great number of highly exotic formations, such as the ending -ya turning into past tense -sine or -tine (e.g. mauya- "to cry", pa.t. mausine; panya- "arrange", pa.t. pantine, pp. 60, 72), or even past tenses involving internal-vowel shifts (like milk- "have, keep, possess", pa.t. malke, or tump- "build", pa.t. tampe - pp. 62, 93). The "Qenya" past tenses should be subjected to a thorough study. True, some of the information provided clearly applies to "Qenya" only, presupposing its own peculiar phonological history; for instance, vowel-shifts in the past tense occur where we have stems involving syllabic consonants - the forms milk- > malke and tump- > tampe come from stems MLKL and TMPM. Such stems are no longer possible in Tolkien's later vision of Primitive Elvish, so in later Quenya, shifts like milk- > pa.t. malke would not be possible either (there is nothing to parallel this in the Etymologies). Yet in some cases the Qenya Lexicon may provide clues to mysteries in Tolkien's later Elvish. For instance, Gilraen's Sindarin linnod in LotR Appendix A has onen for "I gave".

The Qenya Lexicon Reviewed
https://ardalambion.net/qlreview.htm

The "scholarly consensus" in this case means those who have studied Tolkien Linguistics. As amateurs or at university. It may refer to three people, Helge Fauskanger, probably best standardiser of Neo-Quenya, David Salo, dito for Sindarin, and Carl F. Hostetter, director of the Yahoo group Elflang list.

The coherence of Tolkien's languages is also a testament to two other factors.

• Having no predecessor, he did not have to dodge excellent solutions for fear of copyright strikes.
• Not being homeless, he did not get his notebooks stolen or lost.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Mary Magdalene
22.VII.2024

Questions on the Reformation

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Persecutions of Catholics by Protestants, Reformation Era · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: Questions on the Reformation

I answered one on quora, was prompted to answer another one, for both I looked at "related questions" ...

What do Catholics think about Protestants?

The Catholic Church teaches that Protestantism is wrong, in each case when they actively oppose some of the anathemas of the council of Trent, and some other later or earlier definitions.

The Catholic Church also teaches that the Protestant communities born from the Reformation, or later on from this first generation of Protestant communities are lacking in Church structure, generally lack valid bishops, priests, confirmations, eucharists, absolutions and extreme unctions.

There are Catholics who agree on this Church teaching, and I do. There are Catholics who go beyond it and accuse every Protestant irrespectively of community of every error any Protestant embraced, I do not. And there are Catholics who disagree, which I also do not.

One more thing. Some of the Church teachings on my view would be targetting mainly Mainstream European Liberal Protestantism, for instance Gregory XVI saying they are not Christian. Partly because US was geographically marginal, while in any European country, Revivalism was marginal, and on top of that the Revivalism there was, Pietism, had an ugly Anti-Intellectual slant. On my view it has some significance that this was before both Asuza Street and John C Whitcomb & Henry M Morris.

What books were discarded by Catholics during the reformation process and why did Protestants not include them in their own Bible(s)?

Catholics didn't discard books, it was Protestants who discarded books, and book parts. Some discarded them from full canonicity, but included them in Bibles, some even banned them from the Bibles.

Why didn't the Catholic and Protestant churches reunite after the Protestant Reformation?

Because the Protestant Reformation was how the Protestant Churches split from the Catholic Church. In visible assymetry.

Let me clarify the last point. In 1054, Michael Caerularius and the legate of Pope St. Leo IX excommunicated each other. Both parties said they were just staying in the Church they had previously been in, and that the other party was guilty of leaving it. The symmetry is not true, one of the parties is wrong, but the assymetry was not as visible and as obvious.

In 1522, Martin Luther was excommunicated by the Pope. He did not pretend to pronounce an excommunication back. He pretended to consider the Pope as Antichrist, and this not simply for the then Pope, Leo X, but for all recent Popes, way back, as long as there were indulgences, as long as there were monastic vows, and so on.

He also pretended he had been previously wrong, by being Roman Catholic, and had "woken up" ... so Leo X, like both parties in 1054, said he was continuing the faith and Church he had been born into, and Luther did not say that. Visible assymetry. Or if he said so in a subtle way, it was by pretending there were factions agreeing with himself (on each issue? on all issues? he wasn't clear) in times where official Church teaching was "wrong" ...

Lutherans sometimes believe that Luther was pretty wrong on some, but because of this or that detail, one should still hold to Lutheranism. A more common opinion among Lutherans is wanting to stay clear of Catholic dogmatism ... avoiding a Church which doesn't encourage a totally free enquiry.

Some other types of Protestant will be more likely to shout out "unbiblical" about this or that Marian doctrine or this or that practise. That's their rationale for not becoming Catholic.*

The Catholics' rationale for not becoming Protestant (except some in the Vatican II connexion seem to have subreptitiously or not so subreptitiously embarked on that road**) is, as above, the result of the Reformation was, in the countries that went through that evil process and in the communities in other countries that resulted from it, a maimed Church with an adulterated or in some cases at best just very incomplete doctrine.

What led to the split between Protestants and Catholics? Why do some Protestants still identify as Catholics?

I would say that lots of the reasons for the split was Protestants being more woke about how to re-read things in the light of recent discoveries about Ancient Roman society.

And the reason why many Protestants at the time tried to claim the title Catholic and pretend that the actual Catholics were "Papists" was, they hoped back in the 1520's and 1530's that their discoveries would hold sway over all of the Catholic Church. They were wrong.

Was Protestantism more secular or fundamental during the time of its conception than the Catholic Church was at that time?

In the Reformation period, Protestantism prefigured modern Secularism in many ways, while the Catholic Church were more like Fundamentalists at least in so far as they believed more miraculous things and followed more rules.

Was protestantism [a] more secular movement during the time of it's conception?

Arguably, yes. As said, the Reformation was inspired by the discoveries about Ancient Rome, parts of which were about secularist views. In 1527 Gustav Wasa supported it because he wanted to secularise Church property, and in 1534, while Henry VIII didn't quite want to secularise marriage like Luther had done, in defiance of Mark 10:6, he found the Fundamentalist views on Christian marriage by Pope Clement VII a bit too irksome.

Why didn't protestants split from the Catholic church around 350 A.D. instead of 1523?

If Protestantism is what Protestants sometimes claim, a very good question.

If the original Christians were Protestants, as Protestants claim, at the time when they claim the Catholic Church departed from original Christianity, there should have been not just a verbal protest, but dissent from that apostasy, as they presume it was.

Some Protestants have pretended this actually happened, and have identified any degree of dissent from and marginality within the Catholic Church over the centuries as a continuing Protestant Church, under different names. Obviously, such a Protestantism, if it had been one, would have been more like modern Evangelicals than like the daughters of the Reformation in terms of structure, namely lacking a firm organisation and a visible undisputable continuity.

What changes in the Catholic Church prompted the Protestant Reformation?

Let's see ... excommunicating Luther? Wait, Luther was already involved.

Some Protestants have pretended to make a list of "changes" that the Catholic Church implemented over several different centuries, and at the Reformation it was time (somehow than rather than 100 years earlier or later) for faithful Christians to jump ship from this ever changing ... well, the problem is, they have a problem proving the Catholic doctrines they attack were actually changes. Their methodology is faulty. They will take "we don't think we can find it in the Bible and we don't think very early Church fathers mentioned this" (a sometimes very subjective impression) as a guarantee of "therefore, this is a new thing, a change, on part of the Catholics" ... I have lampooned their methodology in my story about the Mexican in Edinburgh. The letters the Mexican had received hadn't mentioned kilts or whisky or haggis, so, the Mexican when arriving in Edinburgh imagines his host is gradually going mad.***

When did the Catholic Church finally accept the split between Catholicism and Protestantism?

What do you mean by "finally accept the split"? If you mean accept that there are people who are outside the Catholic Church and are baptised and are heretics, and those heresies are heresies of Protestantism, as soon as the heresies were there and She excommunictated heretics or anathematised heresies.

If you mean accept the split is final, well, we haven't. We still pray for the conversion of heretics.

If you mean accept that people in some countries have a civil right to be Protestant, we consider that a question of politics, and in some countries it would very quickly have become impossible to enforce the Inquisition, chief and first of them Holy Roman Empire, also known as Germany.°

Has the Catholic Church doctrine changed over time?

Doctrines have become formal dogmas.

The Catholic Church is older than Protestantism and the oldest form of Christianity in Europe. When did the first Protestant sects start appearing like lockust?

That depends on what you count as Protestantism. Are Medieval Waldensians Protestant? Or aren't they?

Some would count them as a very different heresy (and they are closer to Evangelicals than to the Reformation, but the Evangelicals are also closer to Catholics than the Reformation is). Lewis XI of France refused to count them as heretics, contrary to the Pope finding they were so.

In the Reformation period, however, Waldensians came to join cause with Calvinists, and Hussites with Lutherans.

Hussites are closer to an actual precursor of the Reformation. Even so, not all agree on that either:

In contrast to the popular perception that Hus was a proto-Protestant, some Eastern Orthodox Christians have argued that his theology was far closer to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Jan Hus is considered a martyr saint in some jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church.[65] The Czechoslovak Hussite Church claims to trace its origin to Hus, to be "neo-Hussite", and contains mixed Eastern Orthodox and Protestant elements. Nowadays, he is considered a saint by the orthodox churches of Greece, Cyprus, Czechoslovakia, and several others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hus

Either way, he was, like the Reformers, closer to Catholicism than early Waldensians were.

What were the causes of the Protestant Reformation?

The devil, the world and the flesh. It is possible that witches managed curses to make Germany less Catholic, it is certain that the Devil is anyway prone to promote religious errors. As men are not quite as eager to take them directly from him, his helps are the world (general society in Protestant countries from Reformation on) and the flesh (Protestantism pandering to evil lusts in different key promoters of Protestantism, greed and revenge for Gustav Wasa, lust after Anne Boleyn in Henry VIII, a dissatisfaction with fasting in many (including Luther) as well as with monasteries (including Luther).

What was the Catholic Counter Reformation?

• a Catholic revival, just as Fundies have had Fundie revivals against Darwinism and Rock'n'Roll
• reforms in Church administration
• efforts on the missionary and military side to bring back populations and territories to Catholicism.

When did the Protestant Reformation end?

One could say, when the last group of people leaving the Catholic Church had become some sort of Protestants. This would be the Mennonites.

After the foundation of the Mennonites, all later Protestant groups have left only Protestant groups, and sometimes clearly for the better, like when Bertil Gärtner°° left the Swedish Church and joined the Augustana synod of Missouri, I think, which is, apart from agreeing with Catholicism on refusing female ordination, also has some Catholic and Liturgy friendly sides. It's High Church. Both I and Father Caesarius Cavallin OSB and lots of others either come from Gärtner's Free Synod or from sympathisers with it (I never personally accessed it).

After the Reformation, who burned more "heretics", the Catholics or the Protestants?

If you only count executions for the religious crime heresy and the execution method burning (often after strangulation, so it was only a dead body that was burned), there is no doubt that it's Catholics.

This doesn't by any stretch mean that Protestants didn't execute Catholics or burn heretics. Servetus was burned in Calvin's Geneva, Bartholomew Legate and Edward Wightman were burned in the England where James I had issued the King James Bible the previous year. However, they preferred executing Catholics over executing heretics. And most Catholics were executed as traitors to the King. Or, in the case of Elisabeth I, traitors to the Queen.

Cardinal David Beaton was however murdered in a kind of execution ritual, probably as persecutor of George Wishart, since after the killing, he was hanged from the castle window.

The peasants that were hung by Coligny during the Religious Wars in France were probably hung for being "rebellious peasants" (they tried to defend their church and priest) and in the case of the Pilgrimage of Grace executions and Dacke executions, the charges of peasant rebellion and treason to the king were combined (in both cases, there were churches to defend).

This is only counting actual executions. Far more recently, in Ireland, the Catholic peasants cultivated sufficient wheat to not starve to death, but their landlords refused them the wheat for survival, they wanted it for "business as usual" and told them "as per contract, your food is potatoes" (the crops of which had just failed). Lots of Anglo-Irish landlords were more than happy to see Catholics starve to death and replace them with Ulster Scots.

What will it take to get Protestants and Catholics to come together as one?

It will happen two ways.

• Protestant conversions.
• Catholic apostasies.

As said, some count Vatican II in that latter league.

Who started the Protestant Reformation?

Luther, Zwingli and Oecolampadius, unless you want to go on to kings or back to Hus.

Did any Catholics convert to Protestantism during the Reformation?

I wouldn't call it "convert" but that's where the Protestant populations come from. Gustav Wasa and Henry VIII were raised Catholics, so were all of the one's and most of the other's subjects. When they died, the populations had been wedged away from Rome.

Have Protestants been executed by Catholics?

Yes, and vice versa.

What do Catholics and Protestants have in common?

When neither is Modernist, what Lita Cosner in 2009 called "generic Christianity" (she's married since, so now she's Lita Sanders). That would include Young Earth Creationism or at a minimum the special creation of Adam before there were any other human people and within reasonable time for Genesis 3 to be transmitted from Adam to Moses.

Two last questions, I think they go together:

What are some reasons why some Protestants may not like Catholics?

Why are Protestants not Catholic?

For some the latter question is not a question of dislike, but of historical habit. This was also my case before I became a Catholic. Or Caesarius Cavallins. In some of these cases, you add a few principled objections, that are often somewhat superficial, sometimes misinformed.

When there is actual dislike, I'd count things like these as probable:

• descending from Hussites
• descending from Huguenots
• descending from Waldensians
• descending from Ulster Scots
• cultivating theological prejudice against Catholic doctrines like they (more or less) are
• inventing histories like those of Hislop or of Ruckman.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris, Georges Pompidou
IX LD after Pentecost
21.VII.2024

* Some of my answers to such points:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Matthew 6:7 and the Rosary
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2022/01/matthew-67-and-rosary.html

Great Bishop of Geneva! Jeremias 7 and 44 and the Duchess of Dorchester
http://greatbishopofgeneva.blogspot.com/2023/06/jeremias-7-and-44-and-duchess-of.html

New blog on the kid: Refutation of Dr. Steven Nemes
http://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2024/07/refutation-of-dr-stephen-nemes.html

** The accusation is debated.

*** For the full story, see here:

Great Bishop of Geneva! The Mexican in Edinburgh and Church History
https://greatbishopofgeneva.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-mexican-in-edinburgh-and-church.html

The greater part is actually discussing some of the accused "changes" ...

° The Inquisition is, therefore, not a thing we regard as an outrage against human dignity, still less as a persecution of real Christians (except in miscarriages of justice, St. Joan, some would also say Savonarola), but also not as a duty, something we have a duty to bring back. Conditions vary. In Babylon, Jews couldn't stone idolaters.

°° I liked Bertil Gärtner before I heard of Archbishop Lefebvre.

Kurdish and Turkish are not similar

As Kurdish is closely related to Persian, neither is Turkish and Persian simular. But google translate has Persian only in the Arabic script, or alphabet as we said before discovering on the internet that Arabic actually has an abjad instead ... so, to get something I can (very approximately) pronounce, I took Kurdish instead of Persian.

Select a sentence in Kurdish and in Turkish, and see how similar they are!
Hevokek bi kurdî û tirkî hilbijêrin, bibînin ka çiqas dişibin hev!		Kürtçe ve Türkçe bir cümle seçin ve ne kadar benzer olduklarını görün!
Can we do it one more time?
Ma em dikarin careke din bikin?		Bir kez daha yapabilir miyiz?
But if you speak of windows, they become a bit more similar?
Lê heke hûn qala pencereyan bikin, ew hinekî dişibin hev?		Ama pencerelerden bahsederseniz, biraz daha benzer hale gelirler, öyle değil mi?
Of course, that could be an effect of loan words ...
Bê guman, ew dikare bandorek peyvên deyn be ...		Elbette bu ödünç alınan kelimelerin bir etkisi olabilir ...
You mean, apart from loan words, they are very different?
Yanî ji xeynî peyvên deynî, ew pir cuda ne?		Ödünç alınan kelimeler dışında çok farklılar mı yani?

Now, let's do it for Armenian, like Kurdish Indo-European, but not the same branch. While Armenian has its own alphabet, google translate offers a transscription along with it.

Select a sentence in Kurdish and in Turkish, and see how similar they are!
Ընտրեք նախադասություն քրդերեն և թուրքերեն և տեսեք, թե որքան նման են դրանք:		Yntrek’ nakhadasut’yun k’rderen yev t’urk’eren yev tesek’, t’e vork’an nman yen drank’:
Can we do it one more time?
Կարո՞ղ ենք դա անել ևս մեկ անգամ:		Karo?gh yenk’ da anel yevs mek angam:
But if you speak of windows, they become a bit more similar?
Բայց եթե խոսում եք պատուհանների մասին, ապա դրանք մի փոքր ավելի նման են:		Bayts’ yet’e khosum yek’ patuhanneri masin, apa drank’ mi p’vok’r aveli nman yen:
Of course, that could be an effect of loan words ...
Իհարկե, դա կարող է լինել փոխառության խոսքերի հետևանք ...		Iharke, da karogh e linel p’vokharrut’yan khosk’eri hetevank’ ...
You mean, apart from loan words, they are very different?
Այսինքն փոխառության բառերից բացի շա՞տ են տարբերվում։		Aysink’n p’vokharrut’yan barrerits’ bats’i sha?t yen tarbervum.

Well, neither is Finnish and Swedish closely related! Or German and Hungarian!

Neighbouring languages are not always similar at all, even when they have many words in common due to loans one way or both ways. And even when the culture is similar like between Swedish and Finnish or German and Hungarian, or obviously Kurdish and Turkish cultures.

If you are neither from the regions involved, nor knowledgeable about languages, you might tend to miss this.

Swedes and Finns, by the way, have cultural, but not linguistic, similarities to the Ojibwe, in ways that peoples well South of the Baltic have not. Hence, in Minnesota, you have Findians. Look it up, true story and not a bad one!

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
IX LD after Pentecost
21.VII.2024