Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: Answering Netanyahu ·
Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Moral Clarity: Two Wrongs Don't Make One Right ·
Countering Kisin
1:53 but I'd actually start with the original 1:55 Moses the Jewish people uh have lived in 1:58 the land of Israel what is now the the2:01 state of Israel uh have lived here and 2:03 have been attached to this place for 2:05 about 2:06 3,500 2:08 years three and a half Millennia now for 2:11 the first two Millennia roughly of that 2:13 time uh we were living in what is 2:16 described in a text commonly known as 2:19 the Bible so the Bible describes how the 2:21 Jewish people lived on this land were 2:24 attached to this land fought off 2:26 conquerors sometimes were conquered but 2:28 stayed on their land and that uh 2:30 continued uh for a very long time until 2:33 roughly the sixth 7th Century actually 2:36 uh after the birth of Christ okay for 2:39 for roughly for 2,000 years uh we were 2:43 conquered by the Romans we were 2:44 conquered by the Byzantines they did a 2:46 lot of bad things to us but they didn't 2:49 really Exile us contrary to what people 2:51 think okay the ones the the loss of our 2:55 land actually occurred when the Arab 2:58 Conquest took place in the 7th Cent 2:59 Century the Arabs burst out from Arabia 3:02 and they did something that no other 3:04 conqueror not the Romans not the 3:06 Byzantines not the Greeks before them 3:07 not Alexander the Great nobody did 3:10 before they actually started taking over 3:13 the land of the Jewish Farmer they 3:15 brought in military colonies that took 3:17 over the land and gradually over the 3:19 next two Century the Jews became a 3:22 minority in our land so it is under the 3:25 Arab Conquest that the Jews lost their 3:28 Homeland the Arab were the Colonials the 3:31 Jews were the natives dispossessed
Netanyahu Makes Peterson Go QUIET with PROOF that Israel Belongs To The Jewish People
Rabbi Dovid Vigler | 27 Dec. 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLwtExVA7Zk
Netanyahu is here baiting and switching between Ethnic Israelites (irrespective of confession) and people of Jewish Confession (in principle irrespective of ancestry, but concretely mostly, and vastly so, Ethnic Israelites).
After AD 70, ethnic Israelites were divided between Christians and Jews and Samarians. After Constantine, there were massive conversions from Judaism to Christianity. So a farmer's ancestors in 350 AD was likely to have lived there since the return from Babylon if not more, but he was likely to be a Christian. These are the ancestors of the Ethnicity now known as Christian Palestinians.
There was a reversal under Chosroes II. When he invaded, many Christians became Jews and started persecuting those who remained Christians. When Heraclius expelled Chosroes, this reversed again. Many who had been Jewish under Chosroes preferring going to Persia over living under Heraclius. Those remaining after that can be described as Mitsrahi Jews, those of the Jewish confession.
So, when "the Arabs" came (this is somewhat of a weazel word in the context), those who got their land confiscated were people remaining Christians and Jews, and even then not all of them, meaning, a new ethnicity emerged, Muslim Palestinians. Please note, calling them Muslim Palestinians or the other groups Mitsrahi or Christian Palestinians isn't about being faithful to what they were called back then, it's a retronym. Like calling a telephone a landline, like calling music not recorded in a studio to be played later live music, even if it referred to a time when live music was all there was, like speaking of Richard Cœur de Lion as living in the Middle Ages, like speaking of Alexander the Great as dying in 323 BC. Or like calling a Romanus or Rhomaios with Constantinople as capital a Byzantine, which Netanyahu had no problem with.
The point is, while the Muslims in the Holy Land over the last centuries Netanyahu mentions got their religion from the invaders, they got their ancestry to a large part from people who had been living there since Moses. In other words, the Muslim Palestinians may have started out as 10 % Ishmaelites from the Arabian Peninsula and 90 % Israelites, both Mitsrahi and Christian Palestinian, to use the retronyms. The telltale is that Arab authorities don't classify the Muslim population of the Holy Land (vilayet Al Quds, later on), but as Mustariba, just as with the Muslim populations of Jordan or Lebanon or Syria, to use other basically retronyms. Mustariba means Arab-ised. I don't think this applies to the Arab Beduins of the Negev, by the way, but I could be wrong.
The names back then would have been Muslim, Naṣrānī or Masīḥī, Yahudi. The point is, the Muslimin back then were not simply invaders, they were also, more and more, indigenous people
siding with the invader. This is why I claim, the Muslim Palestinians as an ethnicity go back to Moses. Sure, Moses was no Muslim. He was also no Druz. But Muslims of the area, as well as Druz of the area and of Lebanon just North of it, descend from people who came with Moses. Because, it is also highly probable that the Palestinian population has not been replaced since the arrival of Omar.
Zionists often like to cite the people arriving to the mandate from Jordan or Egypt or Syria. But I would venture, this whole area already became the Greater Israel prophecied in Isaiah 11 c. 2000 years ago, through Christians, mainly, but in parallel, through Jews. Why are the Jews indigenous to the Holy Land called Mitsrahi? Are you telling me they never came to the Holy Land from Egypt after a family had been away for some generations? I would say they did. And I would imagine that Muslims and Christians coming to the Mandate would have been in a similar position. They were doing a kind of Aliyah, though not that of your state.
the Jews were 3:35 dispossessed we were flung to the Far 3:38 Corners of the earth uh suffered 3:41 unimaginable suffering because we had no 3:43 Homeland but we didn't disappear
Lots of this dispersal had started way earlier. I'm very sure St. Athanasius met Jews in Trier, when he was exiled there, banishment pronounced in 335, because his Quicumque vult contains a reply to the Shema. Some would claim Jewish presence in India goes back to the time of King Solomon. Jewish presence in Persia, well, some stayed in the exile, and some more went there with Chosroes as mentioned.
Here Netanyahu is identifying "Jews" with exiles, not just to the exclusion of Christian and Muslim Palestinians, but to the exclusion or at least forgetful omission of Mitsrahi Jews.
the Arabs who had 4:06 conquered the land best basically left 4:09 it Barren they never made it their own 4:11 it was a Barren land it really had 4:13 practically it was an empty land
It was not as peopled as recently by artificial irrigation that's sapping the Jordan and the lake Kinnereth, but "barren"? Nordisk Familjebok has 4 editions, I'm going back to the first, and to 1888.
12. Nådemedlen - Pontifikat (1888)
Palestina, äfven kalladt Heliga landet l. Förlofvade landet - 605-606, 607-608, 609-610, 611-612
The article is signed H. Almkvist, e. o. Professor, shortened H.A. in the text.
Om Jordandalen se Jordan. Östjordanlandet, en ännu skogrik och fruktbar högslätt af 600 m. medelhöjd med enskilda bergstoppar till nära 1,200 m., reser sig från den djupa dalen i v. som en väldig, i några branta afsatser delad mur, hvilken blott på två ställen genombrytes af större floddalar, nämligen Jarmûk och Jabbôk (nu Wâdi-Sérka). Äfven i ö. höjer sig platån, ehuru i betydligt mindre grad, öfver den tämligen högt belägna syriska öcknen. Vestjordanlandet, som egentligen afses vid tal om P., genomskäres i hela sin längd från n. till s. af en bred landrygg på sådant sätt, att ungef. 3/4 af landets bredd falla i v. och 1/4 ö. derom. Denna ås, som i allmänhet är högst i Galiléen och lägst i Samarien. har en medelhöjd af 450 m., men äfven enstaka toppar till 1,200 m. I öfre Galiléen (n. om udden Ras-en-nakûra) gå åsens sluttningar i v. ända ned till hafvet, lemnande en strandremsa af knappt 1 km. bredd, men i nedre Galiléen vidgar sig låglandet vid kusten till 5 à 10 km. bredd. I ö. och s. ö. sammanhänger detta lågland med de stora, bördiga och historiskt ryktbara slätterna Sebulûn (nu Battôf) i n. och Megiddo- l. Jezreelslätten (nu Merdj-ibn-Amîr) i s., hvilka med en höjd af 60 till 120 m. utgöra den enda beqväma vägen från kusten till Jordandalen. Söder om Karmel utsträcker sig kustslätten, ständigt vidgande sig mot s., ända ned till P:s södra gräns med vexlande bredd af 12 till 20 km. Denna stora och bördiga slätt, som genomskäres af några små kustfloder, har numera icke något gemensamt namn, men på judarnas tid bar den norra delen, mellan floderna Nahr-Sérka i n. och Nahr-Rubîn (s. om Jafa) i s., det ryktbara namnet Sarôn (»slätt»), medan den södra delen hette Sjefelâ (»låglandet»). Mot ö. nedfaller landryggen i brantare sluttningar mot Jordandalen med smärre vattendrag (Nahr Djalûd och Wâdi el-Fâria i Samarien) och smalare, tämligen fruktbara dalgångar inom Galiléen och Samarien, medan deremot i Judéen åsen utbreder sig åt ö. till ett vildt, kalt, vattenlöst bergland, den fruktade »Juda öcken», som når ända fram till Döda hafvets strand. Söder om det egentliga Judéen, d. v. s. söder om den linie, som går från Medelhafvets sydöstra hörn öfver Beêr-Saba till Döda hafvets sydspets, öfvergå den palestinska landåsen och Juda öcken i det likaledes bergiga och öckenlika »sydlandet» (Nédjeb l. Darôma).
I'll translate ... but first, the text has 11 sentences, of a length varying between 4 and 55 words, with a medium of 35~36 words. The text is from before 1906 and 1950, so, invervocalic V sound in Swedish words is still spelled FV (Äfven), post-vocalic V sound is still spelled F (afsatser), verbs still have plural forms (3/4 = tre fjerdedelar ...
falla, hvilka ...
utgöra,
öfvergå den palestinska landåsen
och Juda öcken), and despite it being after the 1870's, the short "ä-ljud" (or open E) is still spelled E, not Ä, in at least "vexlande" and "Vestjordanlandet" ... this is the Swedish I'm being regularly heckled for, as if I were dyslexic, had a severe trauma pushing out my language capacities, were trying to sound "old" with no specific reference (indeed the opposite, you don't often find "ehuru" / "albeit" in my texts), when in fact I am simply boycotting spelling reforms, just like an American could boycott the Webster spelling and go for British "colour labelled axe" as opposed to "color labeled ax" (pronounced exactly identical, except perhaps the R). Or a Frenchman insisting on using passé simple despite a school system promoting passé composé.
About the Jordan Valley, see Jordan. The East Jordan Land, a still forested and fertile high plain of 600 m (1968.5 feet) medium height and some mountain tops to near 1200 m (3937 feet) rises from the deep vallet in the West like an enormous wall, partitioned into some steep cliffs, which only in two places is broken through by bigger river valleys, namely Jarmûk and Jabbôk (now Wâdi-Sérka). In the East too, the plateau rises, though to a clearly lesser degree, above the rather highly located Syrian desert. The West Jordan Land, which is the essential meaning when speaking of Palestine, is in all its length from North to South cut through by a broad land ridge in such a way that about 3/4 or the width fall in the West and 1/4 in the East thereof. This ridge, which generally is highest in Galilee and lowest in Samaria has a mean height of 450 m (1476 feet), but also single peaks to 1200 m (3937 feet). In Upper Galilee (North of the cape Ras-en-nakûra) the slopes of the ridge in the West reach all the way to the sea, leaving a beach strip of hardly 1 km (0.62 miles) width, but in Lower Galilee, the lowland at the coast widens to a width of 5 to 10 km (3.1 to 6.2 miles). To the East and South-East, this lowland connects to the large, fertil and historically famed plains of Sebulûn (now Battôf) in the North and that of Megiddo or Jezreel (now Merdj-ibn-Amir) in the South, which, with a height of 60 to 120 m (200 to 390 feet), constitute the only comfortable way from the Coast to the Jordan Valley. South of Carmel the coastal plain stretches, always widening to the South, all the way to the South frontier of Palestine, with a varying width of 12 to 20 km (7.45 to 12.43 miles). This large and fertile plain, which is cut through by a few small coastal rivers, now has no common name, but in the time of the Jews, the North part, between the rivers Nahr-Sérka in the North and Nahr-Rubîn (South of Jaffa) in the South, the famed name Sarôn ("plain") while the Southern part was called Shefelâ ("the lowland"). To the East the land ridge falls in steeper slopes to the Jordan valley, with smaller watercourses (Nahr Djalûd and Wâdi el-Fâria in Samaria) and narrower, fairly fertile valleys within Galileee and Samaria, while by contrast in Judaea the ridge extends to the East in a wild, bare, dry mountain land, the feared "Desert of Judah", which extends all the way to the shore of the Dead Sea. South of Judaea proper, i. e. South of the line which goes from the South East corner of the Mediterranean, over Beêr-Saba to the South tip of the Dead Sea, the Palestinian land ridge and the Desert of Judah transit into the likewise mountainous and desertlike "South Land" (Nédjeb or Darôma).
So, according to a source of 1888, it was not in fact all of the Holy Land that was left barren, it was a specific area, the Judean Desert and the South Land. Was this by any negligence of the Arabs, was this fertile in Biblical times?
Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry
Matthew 4:1-2
Desert clearly named.
And David said to Saul: Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, or a bear, and took a ram out of the midst of the flock And I pursued after them, and struck them, and delivered it out of their mouth: and they rose up against me, and I caught them by the throat, and I strangled and killed them For I thy servant have killed both a lion and a bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be also as one of them. I will go now, and take away the reproach of the people: for who is this uncircumcised Philistine, who hath dared to curse the army of the living God
1 Kings 17:34-36*
Lions have a certain preference for dry land, don't they? So, desert implied with at least probability. Or, even the law:
And when the goat hath carried all their iniquities into an uninhabited land, and shall be let go into the desert,
Leviticus 16:22
How can an all-knowing God make a law intended for not just the desert wandering, but also the soujourn in the Holy Land over 1500 or so years after those forty, up to the Cross, name "desert" in the law if the Holy Land had no desert?**
The land was only "empty" where it had already been empty in the times that Netanyahu looks back to. The idea of a "land without people" is a lie, at best a misunderstanding. It's like saying Nevada is a land without people or Utah ... naturally dry places tend to have large empty areas. Plus confusing the "Nevada" part of Palestine with the whole of it. Netanyahu is sloppy or dishonest.
- His religious case "Moses brought us here" is equally true of Christian and even Muslim Palestinians;
- his "Arabs displaced us" doesn't work, as a secular claim, one doesn't reconquer land one lost 1300 years earlier;
- his "people without a land for a land without a people" is untrue (as a secular claim, if it's not a disguise for the religious claim, where it's even more untrue), since the Judean Desert and the South Land weren't meant to be very peopled and since other parts of Palestine very much were cultivated in Turkish times.
Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Holy Innocents
28.XII.2024
In Bethlehem Judae natalis sanctorum Innocentium Martyrum, qui pro Christo ab Herode Rege interfecti sunt.
* Some would call the book "1 Samuel" and what they would call "1 Kings" is what we call "3 Kings". ** Given the fertility of Samaria, I think it's obvious that the law foresaw Jerusalem and not Mount Gerasim as the place of worship.
