Friday, March 5, 2021

Contradicting a Modernist


One "NO" on Christian History and Archaeology, same group where I deal with admin Drew Gasaway.

Putting out a list on things we should all able to agree or consider

  • 1. The children of Israel did not build the pyramids. Doesn’t add up and the Bible never says they did, they made bricks
  • 2. The use of Numbers isn’t always meant to be taken literally. It’s called numerology and ancient writers used numbers to commentary for example there will be a wiki in the comment section
  • 3. The Dead Sea scroll are useful for what they can tell us of the time period they were written and biblical transmission but they weren’t Christians and we shouldn’t look to them for theology and the answer to what should be in our Bible.
  • 4. Abraham probably didn’t speak the same language as Moses who probably didn’t speak the same language of the later prophets for the same reason Italians don’t speak Latin and we don’t speak old English
  • 5. all of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek
  • 6. There are no dinosaurs in the Bible though mythical creature are referenced but not as literal animals don’t go digging for leviathan bones
  • 7. There is no need to connect Job to a historical time or place the author(s) probable avoided doing so because it’s parable with nothing connecting it with the historical narratives.
  • 8. It’s very likely that the different Books in the Bible have multiple writers and editors.


My considerations on each of these ...

1. The children of Israel did not build the pyramids. Doesn’t add up and the Bible never says they did, they made bricks

Granted for Exodus. For Joseph in Egypt he arguably was involved in heading buildings or came after last of them. But he certainly did not get pushed about with whips to do so.

2. The use of Numbers isn’t always meant to be taken literally. It’s called numerology and ancient writers used numbers to commentary for example there will be a wiki in the comment section

Numbers that are symbolic tend to be symbolic numbers. However, not even a symbolic number, like 40, must be taken non-literally, since literal events of the Bible often have symbolic meanings. A human author can very well put symbolic meanings into a fiction, God who is infinitely wise and allmighty providence can put them into real events.

Non-symbolic numbers (like nearly all lifespans in Genesis 5 and 11, exceptions being one living 777 years and Henoch living 365 years) must be taken literally, since it doesn't make sense to take them symbolically.

666 is a literal gematria of a person or more than one person alive in the end times. St. John says to calculate and does not say to speculate on symbolism. However, symbols may be there too, we aren't forbidden to speculate on them. But for identifying the Beast, while that gematria is not sufficient, it is a minimum. Napoléon doesn't add up, and if it does not mean Apollyon, which it does not, it cannot be made to add up either (five cases of Apollyon, like five cases of Apollon, that adds up to 4666/2666 in Greek gematria).

3. The Dead Sea scroll are useful for what they can tell us of the time period they were written and biblical transmission but they weren’t Christians and we shouldn’t look to them for theology and the answer to what should be in our Bible.

If they were pre-Christians of a sort Jesus would have considered as faithful, their theology may need updates as all OT, but their inclusion of texts is authoritative and their practises may indicate theological points. As I recall, they were

4. Abraham probably didn’t speak the same language as Moses who probably didn’t speak the same language of the later prophets for the same reason Italians don’t speak Latin and we don’t speak old English

Let's check. Genesis 14 is when Abraham was between 75 years, like 1940 BC and when he would probably have been 80 or 86, like 1935 or 1929 BC. Exodus was in 1510 BC (using dates of Roman martyrology). 1940 - 1510 = 430 years. Now, 430 years ago, 1591, we don't have Cicero, even Boethius, or King Alfred, we have in Italian letters Andrea Cornaro (I checked) and in English letters Shakespeare was around. Italians who don't understand the prose of Cornaro and Englishmen who don't understand most verses in Shakespear are not very educated.

Anything Abraham wrote, and I think Genesis from chapter 12 on was written after Abraham had fixated most of chapters 1 to 11 (but not the account of six days, revealed to Moses) into writing, since the chapters become more prolix and detailed in life events, anything he wrote would have been readable to Moses. Perhaps their pronunciation was not identic, very certainly ours is not that to Shakespear's, but that doesn't mean same letters could not be read.

5. all of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek

Granted, unless you mean "originally" since St. Matthew first wrote in "Hebrew" - could be Hebrew or Aramaic - and then translated to koiné.

Also, while Apocalypse was written overall in koiné, we need not exclude word meanings found in older versions of Greek, since these were in koiné literate circles considered as part of the same Greek as they used. I specifically consider it certain that St. John knew Homer's Iliad. That is where Apollon is first called Apollyon. Meanings from Authenriet are not excluded from exposing the Apocalypse.

6. There are no dinosaurs in the Bible though mythical creature are referenced but not as literal animals don’t go digging for leviathan bones

Totally discarded. I think unicorn bones have been found in what is now named Triceratops horridus, and that young examples of it only had front horn on nose, whole older ones acquired extra horns on what was the crest (though not in the race Centroceratops) first two more in Triceratops, then some more in Styracosaurus. Not sure whether Leviathan was an ancient croc or an ancient T Rex or something else.

7. There is no need to connect Job to a historical time or place the author(s) probable avoided doing so because it’s parable with nothing connecting it with the historical narratives.

16 And Job lived after [his] affliction a hundred and seventy years: and all the years he lived were two hundred and forty: and Job saw his sons and his sons’ sons, the fourth generation. And Job died, an old man and full of days: 17α and it is written that he will rise again with those whom the Lord raises up. 17β This man is described in the Syriac book [as] living in the land of Ausis, on the borders of Idumea and Arabia: and his name before was Jobab; 17γ and having taken an Arabian wife, he begot a son whose name was Ennon. And he himself was the son of his father Zare, one of the sons of Esau, and of his mother Bosorrha, so that he was the fifth from Abraam. 17δ And these were the kings who reigned in Edom, which country he also ruled over: first, Balac, the son of Beor, and the name of his city was Dennaba: but after Baac, Jobab, who is called Job, and after him Asom, who was governor out of the country of Thaeman: and after him Adad, the son of Barad, who destroyed Madiam in the plain of Moab; and the name of his city was Gethaim. 17ε And [his] friends who came to him were Eliphaz, of the children of Esau, king of the Thaemanites, Baldad son of the Sauchaeans, Sophar king of the Kinaeans.

Job 42, LXX (Ellopos)
https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=25&page=42


Vulgate was translated from a Hebrew original after Jews had rehashed Genesis 11 chronology to allow Shem to be Melchisedec, and since it is said Job offered a sacrifice, this means that Jews would have a similar problem with the historicity of this book. Especially if they don't make the connection to Moses' father in law Jethro.

8. It’s very likely that the different Books in the Bible have multiple writers and editors.

If all you mean by an editor is someone making linguistic updates, I definitely agree. All books of the Old Testament have a different way of noting (if at all) vowels in Leningrad Codex to back 2000 years ago.

If you mean someone adding or deleting passages after hagiographer (or in some cases final hagiographer) wrote it, no. Unless you mean situations like Moses delegating Joshua to write last chapter of Deuteronomy or Joshua delegating someone else to write last chapter of Joshua. Nothing beyond "still to this day"

In cases of books spanning many centuries and therefore many generations, it is obvious that if any event was written or dictated by contemporaries, the contributing writers would involve more than a final author, like Genesis, with Moses as final author, Judges, IV Kings, or the two books of Paralipomena.

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