"Do You Speak Jewish?"

By an US American to a couple speaking Portuguese.

Pretty obviously, the person asking wasn't referring to Yiddish, which can be described as Ashkenaz Jewish Medieval German.

She was pretty certainly referring to Djudezmo, which can be described as Sephardic Jewish Medieval Spanish.

One thing which it shares with Portuguese rather than Spanish is, no diphthongs. Perhaps not "non at all" but not the ones in PUEDO and TIEMPO, those are "podo" and "tempo" in Djudezmo.

Again, DJ is closer to Portuguese and French J, than to Spanish "J is actually ACH-Laut".

SH is still distinguished and so that's closer to Portuguese than to Spanish "X is also actually ACH-Laut, but we spell it J now" (¿verdad, Méjico?).

DZ is Z, Ç is S. More Latin American than European Spanish but distinguishing Z from S is more Portuguese than Latin American Spanish.

Also B and D and "hard" G are closer to English or Italian letters than to Spanish ones. Again, not unlike Portuguese.

And it's definitely NOT like Latin American Spanish where CALLE is sometimes KASHE, nope, it's KALYE.

So, if someone confuses Djudezmo and Portuguese, it's probably not a nincompoop, ¿de akodro?

And calling Djudezmo "Jewish" is literally just translating.

So, no, they weren't speaking Sephardic Jewish, they were speaking Portuguese, but that's a kind of mix-up that happens./HGL

(I happen to be more than a Euro short of the kaviko in this cyber, I'm off).

Is Medieval Latin like Classic Latin?

Kind of, depends, who is writing when.

The least like Classic Latin is when Gregory of Tours, Fredegar of Tours and Jordanes write a Latin which is the spelling of the proto-romance spoken language.

Meanwhile, in England Venerable Bede writes a Latin which has already the status of Classic language over there, which for more than a century and a half has been learned as a second language.

And with Alcuin, this one comes to France, triggering a "language divorce" between the spoken and written languages of St Gregory of Tours:

• the written language acquires a new pronunciation from England, along with better mastery of the grammatical details, becomes what is usually called "Medieval Latin", that is, he Latin of Venerable Bede;
• the spoken language acquires new much more phonetic spellings, first sporadically at Strasburg Oaths, and privately as priests prepare their sermons, later systematically, this becomes what is now known as Provençal and French.

Either way, both Medieval Latin proper (English invention involving St. Bede and Bl. Alcuin) and a Late Ancient Latin in the Middle Ages (product of language drift in France, Spain, written by St Gregory, unknown Fredegar, half known Jordanes), will involve words with other uses than Classical ones, and with words borrowed from other languages or hybrids (gyrovagus in St Benedict's rule is a given when it comes to these).

Imagine you wanted to read Judeo-Spanish, well, one step would be to familiarise yourself with one of the Latin alphabet spellings, or learning to read Estrangelo. But is that enough?

I just looked up "blancura" in a standard Spanish dictionary. It means, predictably, whiteness. There is a less predictable sense which is not mentioned there. Perhaps because it doesn't exist in Standard Spanish. In Judeo-Spanish, "blankura" is sometimes used by women as an euphemism for "karbón". Or as a prophecy, since once it's burning, some will be red, some will be yellow, some will be white.

As long as you think "blankura" is - like "blancura" - simply "whiteness", that's incompetent in Judeo-Spanish. By the way, I'm just a beginner there.

Also, a Spanish dictionary will not tell you that "sik sik" is Judeo-Spanish for "often" (borrowed from Turkish).

Well, there is a very similar displacement between Classic and Medieval usages of Latin.

That is why in Sweden or Germany at least, Medieval Spanish is a separate study, it presumes you are already familiar with Classic Latin, but you take separate courses just for that.

Is this the case in France? Or do you have to get to a Medieval history section of a history faculty to discover it?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Cergy
St. Mary Magdalene de Pazzi
29.V.2019

By the way, I looked up "status" in Niermeyer online:

status:

1. stalle — choir-stall.

2. étal — market-stall.

3. poste d'observation et de combat — guard-post.

4. estage de château — castle ward.

5. mesure de longueur — linear measure.

6. *condition juridique des personnes — legal status of persons.

7. (ni fallor) progéniture d'un serf — progeny, offspring of a serf.

8. chevage — poll-tax.

9. validité — validity.

10. *état — state.

11. inventaire — inventory.

More than I knew of, though I knew that "state" was not a Classic sense, since in Classic times that was expressed (or roughly similar was expressed) as "civitas".

There are Guys who Think Latin is an Analytic Language

I suggest they try to present Chinese as a Polysynthetic one, while they are at it, bungling language typology!

Do you know what I found? Well, first, what was I looking for? I was looking for "fishing" as in the trade practised by some of Christ's disciples on lake Genesareth. In order to contrast it with agricultura and commercium. I though piscatus could be the word, but wanted an online check to be sure.

You know what was the first hit? Or second after a totally irrelevant wiktionary hit on the Spanish and Italian word pesca, involving both the word for fishing and the word for persica, peach, which involved - unlike the relevant meaning of pesca - a reference to Latin.

Well, here is this second hit:

IDl : How to Say Fishing in Latin
https://www.indifferentlanguages.com/words/fishing/latin

And here is the explanation:

If you want to know how to say fishing in Latin, you will find the translation here. We hope this will help you to understand Latin better.

Here is the translation and the Latin word for fishing:

piscandi

Check out other translations to the Latin language:

Er, no thanks!

Piscandi is not a word, it is a word form. It is not a noun meaning fishing, it is a form of the verb "to fish", and it is the form which is the gerund in the genitive. Here is a way in which you can use it:

Ibamus ad fluvium piscandi causa / intentione.

We were walking toward the river for the sake / in the intention of fishing.

Obviously, you can also translate the latter of the two as:

We were walking toward the river in the intention to fish.

Or even more fluently ... intending to fish.

But the context where I wanted "fishing" was not this one. I said "agricultura est forsan dignior piscatu inquantum securior" commenting on Cicero's words about agriculture. And I said Cicero's preference of agriculture over fishing is doubtful, due to apostles being fishermen, but if it is in any way true, it is because of it being more secure to plow and sow than to throw your nets.

Well, in the sentence I used piscatu. This is a case form of piscatus, which is the noun for fishing, at least that would have been the noun for fishing or for fish catch if Spanish pescado is a good clue, which I hope it is, I did certainly find no better clue on the above site.

Now, if instead I had used "piscandi" I would have been wrong. Why? Piscandi means "to fish". But "to fish" is not translated piscandi in all contexts. The gerund is rivalling with the infinitive.

So here we have a full case declinsion of "to fish", singular only, since activities are no objects which can be counted:

Nominative	piscare
Genitive	piscandi (!)
Dative	piscando (rare)
Accusative a	piscare
Accusative b	[ad, in] piscandum
Ablative	piscando

Which of the forms could I have used to translate "agriculture is perhaps more dignified, since more secure, than to fish"?

I could have used either nominative, which is the infinitive and doesn't look like the gerund, and I could have used the ablative of comparison, I'll give you both:

Agricultura quam piscare forsan dignior, quia securior, est.

Agricultura piscando forsan dignior, quia securior, est.

In the first, but not the second case, I could also put quam piscare after dignior or securior:

Agricultura forsan dignior quam piscare est, quia securior.

Or:

Agricultura forsan dignior, quia securior, est quam piscare.

But using a verb form for the comparison after a noun for the concept taking the comparative is as clumsy (or voluntarily quirky) in Latin as it is in English to say "farming is ...er than to fish" or "agriculture is ...er than to fish". English can use "fishing" not just as a participle, but also as a noun, meaning the second as well as the first can be amended to "than fishing". Latin cannot use piscandi as a noun in the nominative after quam or as a noun in the ablative of comparison. For a noun, comparable to "agricultura" you need a noun, like piscatus.

You can either say "piscatu forsan dignior quia securior" or "forsan dignior quam piscatus, quia securior".

Do you know what the sad thing is? The guys behind the site IDl / InDifferent languages are doing this kind of thing, not just from English, but also from Spanish and from Russian. If they dared to mistreat Russian as much as they do Latin, they would be out of business fairly quickly with this site at least!

A few notes on above, to those not familiar with linguistic terminology. In linguistics, we distinguish two main directions of syntactic-morphological type, analytic and synthetic, with the former relying more on extra words and on word order, the latter more on endings or choice or stem vowels or such. English is more Analytic than Russian. Russian is more Synthetic than English. While Spanish descends from Latin, a documented fact, not just a reconstruction, though the details of the process can be disputed, Spanish is more Analytic and Latin more Synthetic. So, treating "piscandi" as "a word", a unit independent of context which is simply a unit, is treating Latin as an Analytic language which it is not, rather than as a Synthetic language which it is. I suggested, while they were at it, they could also try to present the extreme form of Analytic languages, the Isolating ones, like Chinese, as a Polysynthetic, the extreme form of Synthetic, and the real example of it would be Esquimeau / Greenlandic.

In Latin, the accusative is used both as a direct object and after certain prepositions. An infinitive is good for the direct object but in Latin unusable for accusative after preposition. "Volo" meaning "I want" can obviously take a direct object : volo panem, I want bread. Equally obviously, it can have an action as direct object, and that object is just as much as the subject behind est, an infinitive : volo piscare, I want to fish. To go cannot take a direct object. If I say "let's go fishing", English uses a form which started out as meaning sth like "let us go while we fish" or "let us go and be fishing at the occasion". In Latin it would be "eamus ad piscandum".

However, to express purpose, Latin has after the classical period borrowed a Greek usage, since Greek has no gerund, but uses infinitive for all cases. Hence, we can now, after Caesar, in Christian times, also say "eamus piscare".

But neither Classical, nor now, there is no going "piscandi". There is only an intent of piscandi. The site was simply wrong. Now, I will give them some feedback, and later you can check if they took notice or bungled on with a Latin they certainly are not qualified of mastering.

Or qualified to master.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Our Lady of Sorrows
15.IX.2017

PS, feedback submitted.

"Cellar door, if it only meant something more interesting" ... but it does!

Quoting from memory C. S. Lewis' written endorsement of this phrase as highly aesthetic phonetically.

In Letters to children, one to a goddaughter, who wanted to become a writer, I think.

We know that Tolkien in his essay on English and Welsh mentioned same phrase - without the qualification "if it only meant something more interesting".

Perhaps wisely so.

First, we can check pronunciation : the "cellar" seems to be the non-rhotic pronunciation, the "door" at least potentially the rhotic one.

Now, I just said, it does mean sth more interesting than the door of a cellar - depending on which language you go to.

For [selador] in French, it means sth highly interesting (never mind French r's being unaesthetic, one can use the Burgundian version, and not use the Parisian r).

Let's put it in context:

"Adorer, ça signifie de mettre en avant la bonté, sainteté, grandeur de Dieu. Les êtres créés le font volontairement s'ils sont doués de l'esprit, et par leur nature en tout cas, même s'ils ne le sont pas, comme le sel et comme l'eau. Le sel adore Dieu par le fait de purifier et faire guérir les plaies, et ceci avec de la peine, comme c'est le cas pour la pénitence. Et l'eau adore Dieu par le fait d'être limpide, pour le fait d'enlever les souillures et de préparer les gens à vivre un bon moment avec le visage et les vêtements propres. Donc, le sel et l'eau sont utilisés pour l'eau bénite, avec qui on se signe avant d'adorer Dieu."

But you also have Spanish, where it would in Madrid and further South be "watchman" or "watching". Above, in Burgos, that would not be [selador] but [thelador].

In theory, it could instead have been either of two meanings, Latin "celator" - hider - or "zelator" - zealot. Probably the first is the real relative of Spanish celador.

If one made a conlang with roughly Spanish development of Latin words, but with an accent shift like in Sindarin to make it sound more English [sélador = roughly cellar door, rather than seladór], one could say sth about the "cellar door" which makes the subject highly interesting - and which Chesterton would have endorsed:

"The cellar door? Búino, es célador de tésoros y es célador de la líbertadh."*

It is a hider (or watchman!) of treasures and a zealot for liberty - so much indeed of the first, that I suspect Uther Pendragon was more related to the cellar door of king Cole of Colchester than to the dragon of Beowulf, since wine is a healthier treasure than "iumenna gold", especially if also "galdre bewunden."

At least Thorin found it so.

Reminds me of the fact that in Spain, wine cellars in certain parts of the North look very much like hobbit holes (same round doors), so that a wine bottle is technically a "hobbit" - a "holbytla", a "hole dweller". Hence my joke back in 2004 about "drink a hobbit". Nothing to do with any vampyric lusts after Pippin or Merry, simply an observation on where wine bottles in Spain are dwelling.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Pope St Celestine V
19.V.2017

* Real Spanish : "La trappa de la cava? Bueno, es celadora de tesóros y celosa de la libertad".

Quando latín y castellano era el mismo idioma

1) Quand latin et français était la même langue · 2) Quando latín y castellano era el mismo idioma

Scribitur		es pronuntsiado
Servus Servorum Dei est lingua docta pro/per "el servos de los servos de Dio."		"Servos Servoro Dei" es lengua doycha por el servos de los servos de Dio.
Per quid scribitur s e r u u s et non s e r u o s?		Por kedh escribe-se s e r u u s é nõ s e r u o s?
Scribitur s e r u u s, quia antiqui dicebant serv-U-s.		Escribitor s e r u u s, ke li(?) antig(?) deseian serv-U-s.
Et papa decaedit de sola disciplina aut et de fide?		Edh el papa decide de la sola distsiplina odh é de la fedh?
Decaedit et de fide, exempli gratia condemnando eos qui negant Adam casum fuisse per peccatum proprium.		Decide é de fedh, por eishemplo condeñando ellos ki niegan Adam fu caso por pecadho propio.

De Quoi=De Ce Que

On le trouve en Montaigne. "Se plaindre de quoi ..." = "se plaindre de ce que ..."

Alors, on pourrait écrire aussi "Que Quoi" pour "Que Ce Que"="Quam Ut"/"Quam Quod"?

La phrase est indetté à la Syntaxe du Grec Attique: "de quo" pour "de eo quod" n'est pas si bon Latin (ou alors c'est ma lecture thomasienne qui me trompe, référence cicéronienne ou tacitienne reste à vérifier) que les phrases correspondantes sont égales ou la plus courte même meilleure en Grec. Avec le Datif, par exemple: 'oi paides proseikousi tois 'oi goneis eisin e autois eikousi = 'oi paides proseikousi 'ois goneis eisin e autois eikousi. Les progénitures ressemblent à ceux qui sont leur parents ou ressemblent à eux. 'ois= tois 'oi.

Si on peut faire la phrase "que quoi" dans le sens de "quam ut" / "quam quod", alors la syntaxe française a une liberté que manquent les autres langues romanes. La phrase "que ce que" est atroce par l'homonymie entre "que" = "quam" et "[ce] que" = "quod" / "ut".

Ex: "Sous Mola aurait été plus important que vivent les hommes que quoi passent les voitures."

Ceci est inspiré par une épisode peu récommendable du régime Franco, lu dans un livre d'instruction de la langue castellane. Il imposait à un village un réaménagement infrastructurel, les villageois se sont assis pour bloquer, et si ce n'est pas un mensone, les soldats ont tiré sur les villageois et il y a eu des morts. Le carlisme me semble plus respectueux des libertés locales que le franquisme proprement dit.

L'espagnol doit dire:

Ex à éviter: "Bajo Mola habría sido más importante lo que viva la gente que lo que pasen los coches."

Ex corrigé: "Bajo Mola habría sido más importante la vida de la gente que el pasaje de los coches."

D'où certaines différences syntactiques entre les langues romanes et germaniques. En anglais, allemand ou suédois la traduction de "quam ut" ne pose pas de problème:

Ex "Under Mola it would have been more important that the people live than that the cars pass."

Ex "Under Mola hade det vägt tyngre att låta menniskor lefva än att låta bilar passera."

Ex "Unter Mola wäre es wichtiger gewesen daß die Menschen leben als daß die Autos passieren."

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Mouffetard / Paris
Nativité de Notre Dame
la Bienheureuse Vierge Ma rie
le 8-IX-2012

PS, l'épisode en question (même si elle est vraie) n'empêche pas une gratitude envers Franco pour avoir battu l'épouvantable Azaña.

Dimanche n'est pas un nom personnel français ...

... avec une exception, à laquelle je reviendrais. Noël est Pâcques sont représentés par Noël et Natalie et par Pascal(e). Mais Dimanche, le jour hebdomadal du repos? Il ne semble pas que les français soient tellement fiers de se reposer pour honorer Dieux et la Résurrection ...

Autrement les Juifs. Les noms de famille Chabat (comédien Alain Chabat) et Sabatier témoignenet que les juifs (et quelquesuns de leurs descendants chrétiens) sont fiers du jour hebdomadal du Seigneur comme désigné par le Vieux Testament.

Mais également les espagnols. Reprenons les noms des jours en Latin et en Espagnol:

Lunae Dies	Lunes	Lundi
Martis Dies	Martes	Mardi
Mercurii Dies	Miercoles	Mercredi
Jovis Dies	Jueves	Jeudi
Veneris Dies	Viernes	Vendredi
Sabbati Dies	Sábado	Samedi
Dominica Dies	Domingo	Dimanche

Oui, en Espagnol le nom de Dimanche, Domingo, est également un prénom. Porté par aux moins quatre saints: Domenico Loricato, Domingo de Silos, Domingo de la Calzada et - biensur - Domingo Guzmán. Et quoique le jour Dimanche soit en latin une phrase au feminin, Dominica Dies, le nom devient Dominicus. D'ou Dominique en français. Dominique veut donc dire Dimanche.

En Grec, Vendredi s'appelle Parascheve ou Paraschivi d'après le jour de préparation/Vendredi Saint. Ste Paraschève, appelée Petka était une moniale de Palestine.

Con-sti-tu-ci-o-na-li-sta

En Dinamarca soy monarquico, en Suiza republicano.

Dinamarca es un reino despues del tiempe del rey Frothón I aunque ciertos le consideran y consideran otros reyes nordicos como aliases de dioses.

Suiza es una federación de republicas bastante pequeñas.

Hay constituciones un poco mas complicados, por ejemplo ser los dos a la vez, como el Imperio Romano Cristiano despues de San Constantino - una constitución heredada de tiempos paganos, entonces después César Agosto, contemporaneo de Frothón I.

En algunos lugares, como los Reinos antiguos en los pireneos se añaden también parlamentos o cortes.

En algunos paises se añaden también querelas sobre la constitución correcta. En una situación de consenso no forzado no hay duda que la succesión legitima en el poder es la succesión constitucional.