Tuesday, September 17, 2013

Kent Hovind's Inaccuracy on Wine

Video commented on:
Kent Hovind is Crazy #30: Alcohol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQydf9QDFSo


It is on the channel of Trin80ty, where I am blocked.
I
Wine or Greek oinos certainly does mean alcoholic wine. Witness Anabasis where a first contact with beer is discribed as "oinos krithinos" - "wine of barley."

I got Χυμού σταφυλιών for Grape Juice on:

Babylon : English to Greek Translation - Get your translation job done with our English to Greek translator!
http://translation.babylon.com/english/to-greek/


But I will look up the word Greek to English in a less "Babylon" related context:

  • σταφυλή - bunch of grapes
  • χυμός - juice
  • ἄμπελος - grape-vine, Vitis vinifera
  • and above all (on same online dictionary search engine):
οἶνος
wine,
Greek Dictionary Headword Search Results : οἶνος
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&lookup=oinos&lang=greek


(Show lexicon entry in:
  • LSJ
  • Middle Liddell
  • Slater
  • Autenrieth)
οἶνος , ὁ,
A.wine, μέλας οἶ. (cf. οἶνοψ) Od.5.265,9.196 ; “ἐρυθρός” 5.165, 9.163 ; “αἶθοψ” Il.1.462, 4.259 ; “ἡδύς” Od.2.349,9.204 ; “ἡδύποτος” 15.507 ; “μελιηδής” Il.4.346, al. ; “μελίφρων” 6.264 ; “παλαιός” Od.2.340, Pi. O.9.48, cf. Simon.75 ; “οἴνους παλαιοὺς εὐώδεις” X.An.4.4.9 ; “ἐΰφρων” Il. 3.246 ; “εὐήνωρ” Od.4.622 ; “οἶνον ἔμισγον ἐνὶ κρητῆρσι καὶ ὕδωρ” 1.110 : with Preps., ἐν οἴνῳ over one's cups, Ar.Lys.1227, Call.Epigr.23.8 ; “παρ᾽ οἴνῳ” S.OT780 ; “παρ᾽ οἶνον” Plu.2.143d ; “μετὰ παιδιᾶς καὶ οἴ.” Th. 6.28 : also in pl., “ἡ ἐν τοῖς οἴ. διατριβή” Pl.Lg.641c, 645c ; “ἐπ᾽ οἴνοις” Pherecr.153.9 : pl. also, οἶνοι, wines, X.l.c., Pl.R.573a,al. ; οἶνος δωδεκάδραχμος wine at 12 drachmae the cask, D.42.20 : prov., “οἶ. τῷ φρονεῖν ἐπισκοτεῖ” Eub.135 ; οἶνος καὶ ἀλάθεα (v. ἀλήθεια), in vino veritas, Alc.57, Theoc.29.1 ; “οἶνος . . ἀληθής” Pl.Smp.217e ; οἴνῳ τὸν οἶ. ἐξελαύνειν 'to take a hair of the dog that bit you', Antiph.300.1 : οἶνος is.freq. omitted, πίνεὶν πολύν (sc. οἶνον) E.Cyc.569, Theoc.18.11 ; esp. with names of places, Θάσιος, Χῖος, etc., Eub.124,125,126 : resin was used as a preservative, “πισσίτης οἶ.” Plu.2.676c.

2. fermented juice of other kinds, οἶνος ἐκ κριθέων πεποιημένος barley wine, a kind of beer, Hdt.2.77 ; οἶ. φοινικήϊος palm-wine, ib.86, cf. 1.193 ; lotus-wine, Id.4.177, etc. ; from which drinks grape-wine (οἶ. ἀμπέλινος) is expressly distd., Id.2.60.

II. the wine-market, “τρέχ᾽ ἐς τὸν οἶ.” Ar. Fr.299.

III. name of Dionysus, Orph.Fr.216. (“ϝοῖνος” Leg.Gort. 10.39, Inscr.Cypr.148H. ; cf. Lat. vinum.<*>

οἶνος1
Lat. vinum, wine, Hom., etc.; παρ᾽ οἴνῳ over one's wine, Lat. inter pocula, Soph.; οἶνος ἐκ κριθῶν barley- wine, a kind of beer, Hdt.
οἶνος
1.wine “αἴνει δὲ παλαιὸν μὲν οἶνον, ἄνθεα δ᾽ ὕμνων νεωτέρων” O. 9.48 “βαρβιτίξαι θυμὸν ἀμβλὺν ὄντα καὶ φωνὰν ἐν οἴνῳ” fr. 124d. “ἀνδροδάμαντα δ᾽ ἐπεὶ Φῆρες δάεν ῥιπὰν μελιαδέος οἴνου” fr. 166. 1. “εὐώ[δεα — ]λ᾽ οἶνον” ?fr. 338. 3.
οἶνος(ϝοῖνος, cf. vinum):
wine. It was regularly mixed with water before drinking, see κρητήρ, ἀμφιφορεύς, ἀσκός, πίθος, πρόχοος, νέμειν. Epithets, αἶθοψ, ἐρυθρός, μελιηδής, μελί-φρων, ἡδύς, ἡδύποτος, εὐήνωρ. γερούσιοςοἶνος, typical of the dignity of the council of elders. Places famed for the quality of wine produced were Epidaurus, Phrygia, Pedasus, Arne, Histiaea, Lemnos, Thrace, Pramne, and the land of the Ciconians.

"It was regularly mixed with water before drinking" - why would you do that if it was only grape juice?

Now, the Catholic Church in every Mass mixes a drop of water into the wine, for a symbolic reason, but also because Jesus probably did so "as any sober man" (thus the commentator in the liturgy comment - I think it was Dom Guéranger, Explication de la Sainte Messe or de l'Ordinaire de la Messe or de la Sainte Liturgie). Meaning that if in Ancient times you added one third water before drinking, you would lower the strength from natural wine strength to the strength of strong beer. For drinking wine without mixing, the word was not vinum in Latin, but merum - "unmixed" (a word which gives English "mere").

No, in Greek oinos has indeed a range of meaning, but typically either:

  • natural wine as fermented (when we talk about production, transport, trade ...)
  • OR
    wine mixed with water immediately before consumption (and when Jesus turned water into wine, it was mixed with water before serving as the rest of it was, how would that have tasted if it was grape juice He made?)
  • OR
    by extension it can also mean other fermented juices, like fermented barley "juice", what we call beer, and presumably fermented cherry juice, which we also call cherry wine.


BUT NOT unfermented grape juice.

For Hovind's sake I am glad I recognise the passage from another youtube, so it is the same original video. Meaning he did not indulge in this idiotic blooper very often, I hope.
II
When quoting Habacuc Hovind leaves one part out. The intention of seeing someone make an ass of himself.

You can do that by other means than by giving him wine. Like depriving him of sleep and so on. And if you know he is a sober guy and don't tempt him to pass over his usual limits, giving him wine is not in that intention and does not fall under that curse.
III
Hovind is great about many things, but here he is - according to his own theory - behaving as if he had been "planted by the Vatican to reconquer Jerusalem from Chosroes." If you ever read Michael Psellos' account in Chronographia of how an Emperor later known as Boulgaroktonos (from brutality in conquest of Bulgaria) was remade morally, you will know why on that account I would rather suspect Byzantium than the Vatican. Sheer babylonic evil, that network was. Anyway, on this account (but not that of Creationism) Hovind is basically a Muslim Fifth Columnist. (Will Mohammed VI of Morocco convert despite his ancestor Mohammed, as St Olaf converted despite his ancestor Odin?)
IV
Of course, Trin80ty has his ugly bias for posting this clip. The fact that Hovind does not live up to inerrantism when he is talking about wine is no discredit for someone being inerrantist about "the beginning of creation".


Hans-Georg Lundahl
Nanterre, Paris X
Les Stigmates de St
François d'Assise
17/IX/2013

PS, as we speak of Muslims in this connexion, if I have in general an idea Mohammed started out as deluded by a false Jibreel and real demon, the story of the man who told him "wine was permitted earlier" and who was told "you can drink wine but you cannot steal, fornicate or kill" (if those were the three items) and who before the day was over had done all three of them and told Mohammed "I am sorry, I was wrong", the story of that man suggests something like a Magician, a kabbalist.

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